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Subject: Ballista Report: Dear Mr Fantasy 200pt 6-03-06

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Dagni
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06/05/2006 8:48 AM  
This is probably the first time I've posted a local tourney report. Normally I just don't bother, but also during qualifier or nationals season, I specifically don't want my band known to everyone, either.

This tourney, however, is quite the switch. Not only do I not mind my warband being known, since I'm not playing in any more qualifiers, I actually WANT other people to hear about the band, since I'd love to see it run in one of the remaining qualifiers.

There were 6 people, and 3 rounds of swiss. In typical SoCal fashion, the 6 players include 4 who placed in the top 10 at Nationals last year. Sven wasn't there, however, and Jason was playing for the first time since the SoCal open 2 months ago. He still managed 2-1.

My warband:

Arcane Howitzer
Arcane Ballista
3 Couatls
Cleric of Yondalla
Timber Wolf
Jozan
Man-At-Arms
Map: Keep of Fallen Kings I

Ever since someone mentioned a band here on MaxMinis that was 4 Couatl, 2 Standardbearer, filler; I've wanted someone to play this band. Dwayne and I had made jokes about a 4 Couatl band, but I was impressed a bit with the idea thanks to the inclusion of the Standardbearers. It sounded to me like a decent spoiler band as it was. I quickly noticed, though, that the band just has got to be better with a Ballista in place of one Couatl. Once that change has been made, it looked better to have Yondalla than one or two Standardbearers.

The band really intrigues me. It's really not too incredibly weak against the normal tough matchups for a ranged band. Fast, high damage hitters in large numbers. Monks, Orc Champs, FBs. Not good, perhaps, but the games should be winnable. More, those types of bands are only a small piece of the current metagame, and, like I said, an Archmage band, for example, is going to have as much trouble against these bands, and way more trouble against HGBs.

Conversely, the band should be really strong against a lot of other stuff. Most other things won't be doing damage very fast, and will be running a large or larges as a key part of the band. The band might have a lot more redundancy than Archmage, while still giving the opponent just as much trouble finding a way to beat it. Less does the Ballista need to avoid a key mistake than the opponent has to avoid any mistakes, lest he lose as soon as he does.

Anyway, let's see how it does in practice.

Game 1: vs Jason (Fenris).

He's playing Orcs. The one saving grace is that he's not running an Eye, so he can't do 30 dmg in one hit to my Couatls.

Tiefling Captain
3 Orc Champs
Red Samurai
Orc Wardrummer
Orc Warrior
Map: Fane of Lolth

He wins map init, and side init. He sets up in one room, but gives me a chance to get LoS on all 3 of his Orc Champs after moving the Ballista. If I win init, that will be huge, as I'll be able to get off one shot, then even after he moves two, I'll still have a target for more SS (Snake's Swiftness) shots.

He wins init, moves two out of the way. I still get a shot if I want it, though. He hasn't activated his drummer yet, so I want a shot. Move Ballista, then SS attack. Both fire and frost bolts, so 45 dmg and potential morale at +11 to rout off the board. +16 vs ac 19. Roll a 2 and miss. So much for that.

Now he's got it easier to avoid LoS, since my Ballista can't move anymore, and is in fact quite literally in the very corner of the map. He moves up halfway, and my Couatls position defensively. He gives me a shot at his Orc Warrior, I take it and kill him.

Next round. He makes me go first. We play the waiting game, but I still have 4 unactivated guys when he moves the first 2 of his big four. He moves 2 Champs to a VP area, that's just out of current LoS from the Ballista. To get the Ballista spot I want, I have to move a Couatl first. So I do and sonic orb a Champ, then move Ballista to have LoS to same Champ. He moves his last two figures to base a Couatl. That Couatl misses an attack on the Champ. Last act is a SS on the Ballista for 25 on the Champ basing my Couatl.

I win init, do 25 to that same Champ, he passes morale. I forget what I do next, exactly. He attacks and misses twice with his Orc Champ on my couatl. He moves his only remaining uninjured Orc Champ basing a different Couatl, and hits for 25. Eventually I realize I need to take the aoo there. As was fairly likely, he either missed or a passed morale. In this case, he missed. That one's the nearest target for the Ballista, so SS shoot at him. 25 dmg. Other unbased Couatl, SS shot at same Champ, 25 more, failed morale. (At +11, no LoS to out of position Tiefling.) He moves and swings on my third Couatl, I believe he hit for 25. His Red Sam hits 1/2 for 15 dmg on my first Couatl.

I win init, do 25 to the Orc Champ with 30 hp left, then Sonic Orb with a Couatl for the kill. At some point his Orc Champ hits on 1/2 attacks, but I pass morale on that third couatl. I had also healed my based Couatl 5 hp with Cleric of Yondalla. So when he attacks with his Red Sam and hits for 15 more, it's still not enough to force morale. He brings in his Tiefling in a last-ditch chance to rout this Couatl off the board. He misses, but also his routing Orc Champ is now out of command, and hasn't activated yet this round.

Shortly after this point he concedes the game, and/or we hit the 1 hr time limit.

Win, 1-0.

Game 2. Heh, well, 6 people, so 1 of the 3 winners gets paired down. It turns out to be me paired down against Dan Udwary (DrX).

He's running:

2 Aspect of Moradin
Timber Wolf,
3 MaA.
Map: Mithral Mines.

Ouch, this is going to be brutal on Dan. The Ballista is going to rip apart his band. He wins map init, but I win side. Mithral Mines turns out to have really solid LoS for my Ballista, especially if i get the side I want. Now he can't get any easy tile points, either.

The game is quick and brutal, as by the end of round 1, I'm taking a bunch of shots at his creatures. I miss a MaA, needed a 2 to hit. However, I hit second try, and hit one of his Aspects of Moradin on the third and final SS attack. I believe he wins init, moves in some units. I kill them, but it ends up costing me two more Couatl activations to do so. My Wolf managed to vanquish his only other fodder piece 1v1. So he's down to just his Aspects. He rotated the uninjured in front of the injured. However, I just waited, and he had to move the injured one back in front, though he at least gave him cover. But I hit... and he fails morale! Last shot on the other Moradin for a hit. His Moradin rallies, the other one runs in and barely hits thanks to a charge on the Ballista for 25 dmg. 25 more on the aoo, but the Ballista is still ticking, and I block him from getting back to the Ballista next turn. Then I shoot a couple times... and he fails morale again(?)

Whatever happened, exactly, his first Moradin died before it could do anything more that mattered, and his second literally couldn't win before I killed him with Sonic Orbs, even if I rolled all 1s the rest of the way, and Dan rolled all 20s.

Win, 2-0.

Last I faced Kevin Cleveland (Kevizoid).

He's running:

Marut
Couatl
Cleric of Order
2 Sacred Watchers
Standardbearer
WF Scout
Mialee

We play on Drow Outpost. he wins side init, but elects to put me on the Outpost side. His scout start on the bridge. He wins init, and decides he should've scouted to a different spot, and moves to the outpost scoring area. Ironically, this works out well for him, as I foolishly just assumed he was a sitting target, and didn't ensure that my Ballista could move to a position to shoot at him on any scoring square. I can still get 2 Sonic Orbs off, though, and he's out of command for sure.

At least he has to move before me. I play the waiting game. He moves a SW partway out, where it has elemental resist and cover. I take a shot at that SW. Miss. He has Marut and one SW left, I have 2 Couatl left. He moves a SW onto the bridge, where it has no elemental resists. Marut is behind the other SW. I shoot at the bridge SW with an elemental bolt, and hit and kill it. Last shot on other SW, another miss.

Next round he moves his Standard bearer up some. Even though it's not closest, I realize I can catch it in the blast with the lightning sphere, an ability I'm having a little trouble keeping in mind. Kevin obviously having the same problem, as his move was a mistake in light of the lightning sphere. The Standardbearer manages to pass both saves, though. The other two in the blast take no damage.

I am able to finish off the Standardbearer with a Couatl Sonic Orb. That Couatl is fairly close to the enemy, but at least he's one square too far for the Marut to attack AND base the Couatl. His Couatl sonic orb's my Couatl, and his SW moves and attacks my Couatl, missing. In some impressive dice rolling, I hit the ac 29 SW with a Ballista SS, (+17 attack with magic weapon) and pass incorporeal. Then I Sonic Orb and pass incorporeal to finish off that Sacred Watcher.

His Marut attacks my Couatl, and hits.

He wins init. He could kill my Couatl with Marut plus Couatl SS. However, he'd be in trouble with the Marut being forced to stay still (single minded), and 3 shots coming at him, and he without a SW blocker anymore. He elects to gamble on forcing morale with Mialee's magic missile. However, I pass, and all he can do is try to stun the Couatl with his Cleric of Order's command spell. I pass.

Then I move the Couatl out of the way, and SS the Marut to death.

Win, 3-0.

-----

Conclusion, the band is really a blast to play, and very strong, and I should be able to do even better with it with practice. I'd never played the band at all before the tourney. I never won my map, but perhaps Drow Outpost is better than Keep of Fallen Kings I. Before the tourney, I thought I'd use the King's Road, but I suspect it's correct to NOT bring that one. LoS is surprisingly poor on the map, it's so key to cover every square of the VP areas. Also, of course, there's only so much forest for quadruple large bases.

- Dagni


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Vrecknidj
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06/05/2006 9:11 AM  
I had been considering Ballista with two Couatls, but not with three. This is indeed an interesting twist.

Time to study maps.

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Fundin Strongarm
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06/05/2006 9:45 AM  
I always thought Keep of Fallen King I was a good map for a ranged band, whether that be missile attacks, special abilities or spells. Of course Drow Outpost (man, what would people do without Dragon Magazine 337??) is pretty decent as well.


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06/05/2006 10:46 AM  
Very interesting variation. I like the strategy of it alot. The Keep of fallen kings seems like it would be a good map choice. Drow Outpost work out as well. Maybe the Tomb of Queen Peregrine could work also.

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Fenris
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06/05/2006 12:00 PM  
It was a lot of fun to watch you play that band, Dagni. I think it's a good band, with no unwinnable matchups and several very strong matchups. It looks so silly at first glance, but it really works pretty well.

Hopefully, after I shake off some of this rust, I can provide you with more of a challenge next time. Vassal here I come! [)]


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06/05/2006 12:53 PM  
Thanks for the report. It's making me want to try out this band, or a variation of it. Couatls just get better as they release more hitters that work with them. Using the Ballista is a great choice.

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06/05/2006 12:54 PM  
Dagni, It doesn't suprise me that you did so well. I think your skill level is very high, thus allowing you to take a simple warband and making it dominent.

DM

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06/05/2006 1:00 PM  
Thats a cool design. I assume your using the Couatl's to shield the ballista a bit along with the walls. Sacred Watchers would scare me on your map choice, just because they could avoid being shot until the turn they based the ballista. You should still get enough shots off on their other hitters before the AoO's piled up.

It seems like the game with Fenris was the most aggressive match up. Do you think he put enough pressure on you fast enough? Went after the right targets? I ask because I'm curious to see the results against aggressive style builds, especially ones that can hide a bit around the walls.







quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
More, those types of bands are only a small piece of the current metagame, and, like I said, an Archmage band, for example, is going to have as much trouble against these bands, and way more trouble against HGBs.
- Dagni



Well after this weekend, I'm a believer that Archmages can win the bad match ups. I watched Terry face off against 3 FB + Rikka on the teleport temple. Lord Raven has a lot of experience with his band, yet still fell to the Archmage. Luck helped a bit, but I commented earlier in the next room that that was an unwinnable match up for Terry. I was dead wrong.

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06/05/2006 1:34 PM  
Although I had been thinking of a tri-couatl build, I had ignored the AB in favor of other hitters.

I think Rob did well on the weekend with the AB, and I have come to be at least a partial believer, but it may still need to be tested a bit. Really, there was a single game that tested the band, and that was the Orcs. I did not see enought detail of that match to comment, but it seems to me that OCs should have a good shot at clobbering the ballista. The other two bands were ballista bait from minute 1.



Let it be.

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06/05/2006 2:36 PM  
That game was a mess - for me. Aspect of Moradin just can't do a damn thing against a Ballista, until it gets to it. And with three Couatls, Rob was able to plunk that thing anywhere within 8 squares and take three 35 damage shots. You just don't really plan for that much damage happening that fast to AC 23 figures. Ugh.

Multiple Sacred Watchers, or even enough fast mildly survivable fodder to block on your approach and/or tie up Couatl spells and placement, will give this a headache though, I'm sure.

I learned the hard way, both at the AZ qualifier and this weekend, that ABs are now something to plan against.

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06/05/2006 2:42 PM  
Nice. I had thought of 2x Couatl and Ballista or even 2x Couatl/2x Ballista but neither seemed viable. That third Couatl looks like the missing piece. Very cool. Now I'll have to get a third Couatl to try it!


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06/05/2006 3:27 PM  
Nice to see the ballista is working so well. When WD first hit, many thought no melee capabilities, slow ranged attack, and requiring an allied spellcaster be adjacent just made the piece to difficult to be worth it.

Good thing the Couatl fits faction flavor and doesn't slow play, cause it's getting drider-level play time lately. Anyone wanna bet that there will be more Couatls than players at Nationals this season?

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Dagni
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06/06/2006 2:06 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by XenoZephyr

Nice. I had thought of 2x Couatl and Ballista or even 2x Couatl/2x Ballista but neither seemed viable. That third Couatl looks like the missing piece. Very cool. Now I'll have to get a third Couatl to try it!


Clever plan, I should try it... I only have one Couatl.

quote:
Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm

I always thought Keep of Fallen King I was a good map for a ranged band, whether that be missile attacks, special abilities or spells. Of course Drow Outpost (man, what would people do without Dragon Magazine 337??) is pretty decent as well.

Well, the key is forcing the opponent to come at you. VP areas play a huge role in that. One side of the Keep is great. The other side, however, doesn't have LoS to all the opponent's VP area. On the Drow Outpost, the bad side isn't as bad, as far as VP area LoS. That's the main reason I'm considering switching from the Keep to the Outpost.

quote:
Originally posted by bshugg

Thats a cool design. I assume your using the Couatl's to shield the ballista a bit along with the walls. Sacred Watchers would scare me on your map choice, just because they could avoid being shot until the turn they based the ballista. You should still get enough shots off on their other hitters before the AoO's piled up.

Yeah, certainly the Couatls shield the Ballista, when needed.

Sacred Watchers? It's a warband by warband thing. To boil it down, though, non-Sacred Watcher LG doesn't scare me that much... typical LG doesn't do much damage very fast to resist 10 sonic Couatls, and can't quickly reach the Ballista, and IS usually a Large-base (titan) based band. So even if the SWs are really strong... the actual matchups are potentially not that bad. That said... that's why I need to play at least a couple games with the band before I know what it's good and bad matchups are, and how good or bad the matchups are.

An opposing Couatl makes me rely on the Ballista, and then enemy SWs take more than one shot to get past incorporeal to kill. However, the typical final piece to the Couatl/SW band is the Marut, and he's not too fast, and only does 20 a round, and has Single-Minded. Obviously, I faced that band round 3. I think it's a neutral to good matchup for the Ballista band, at first guess.

A SWarm type band? No Couatl means that you get 2 shots that kill in one hit, if they hit. For everything else, you don't need the Ballista at all! You just Sonic Orb the SWs to death. My guess is that it'd be pretty effective. The Sword Archon would have to avoid the Ballista shots, and even the Sword Archon could get killed with Sonic orbs instead of ballista shots.

quote:
It seems like the game with Fenris was the most aggressive match up. Do you think he put enough pressure on you fast enough? Went after the right targets? I ask because I'm curious to see the results against aggressive style builds, especially ones that can hide a bit around the walls.
It definitely felt like the way that matchup normally will play out it's going to be very high variance, either side could win on good luck. I could've lost that game, if the


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06/06/2006 8:09 AM  
Dagni - that band sounds awesome! I would love to see how my "Girls" match-up against it? Maybe we can get a game in on Vassal...?

3 Couatls would be alot of firepower!! 4 shots a round - if you can see me? doing 25 magic each? Let me make sure I understand something - if the Ballista is based, it can't fire - right?

I think the "Brady Bunch" may give you a run for your money...

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06/06/2006 9:32 AM  
Perhaps you could drop "Carol" (i.e. Rikka) for "Mike" the Gnome Illusionist (formerly known as Nebin) and some tougher fodder.

Put Blur on "Marcia" and "Jan" so they have a fighting shot at reaching the Ballista...

Just a thought. Probably Waylay works better this one time, so Rikka gets at least one shot at the AB before routing/dying.

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06/06/2006 10:47 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Dagni

...
Ever since someone mentioned a band here on MaxMinis that was 4 Couatl, 2 Standardbearer, filler; I've wanted someone to play this band. Dwayne and I had made jokes about a 4 Couatl band, but I was impressed a bit with the idea thanks to the inclusion of the Standardbearers...


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06/06/2006 11:30 AM  
Man... this band would be the one band I would NOT want to see at the qualifier... I played against Xeno's AB band that he took to NJ and that just tore me apart... I had never faced one, so I really wasn't sure what to expect...

That band is a great idea... I do have 3 couatls, so I could give it a shot, but I dont like being a copycat [:d]

Thanks for another great idea!

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06/06/2006 1:07 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Helzapoppn

Perhaps you could drop "Carol" (i.e. Rikka) for "Mike" the Gnome Illusionist (formerly known as Nebin) and some tougher fodder.

Put Blur on "Marcia" and "Jan" so they have a fighting shot at reaching the Ballista...

Just a thought. Probably Waylay works better this one time, so Rikka gets at least one shot at the AB before routing/dying.



Interesting idea Rikka was key in defeating the band Millygoat played in PA? So not sure throwing her out is the best idea... (btw, Rikka is "Alice" & Elf Warrior is "Sam the Butcher")

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06/06/2006 2:41 PM  
Very interesting warband indeed...

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06/06/2006 6:44 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Raven

Dagni - that band sounds awesome! I would love to see how my "Girls" match-up against it? Maybe we can get a game in on Vassal...?

3 Couatls would be alot of firepower!! 4 shots a round - if you can see me? doing 25 magic each? Let me make sure I understand something - if the Ballista is based, it can't fire - right?

I think the "Brady Bunch" may give you a run for your money...

LR

Haha, of course you would! Your band is a bad matchup for this band, made worse if you get teleport temple. (Though that map would give me unique advantages if I was still alive once the AB finally made a teleporter.) Still, as I've said in this thread, even the bad matchups are totally winnable, but even so, yeah, Frenzieds are the worst matchups for Couatls, with just enough damage AND aura of fear.

I might be able to play you on Vassal one of these days.

- Dagni


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06/06/2006 6:47 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Helzapoppn

Perhaps you could drop "Carol" (i.e. Rikka) for "Mike" the Gnome Illusionist (formerly known as Nebin) and some tougher fodder.

Put Blur on "Marcia" and "Jan" so they have a fighting shot at reaching the Ballista...

Just a thought. Probably Waylay works better this one time, so Rikka gets at least one shot at the AB before routing/dying.

I'm not a big fan of Nebin, personally. Also, in this case Flight is huge, as Lord Raven can get to the Ballista easier.

- Dagni


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06/08/2006 5:50 PM  
used exactly the same band against
Lion of Tallisid
Greenfang Druid
Evermeet wizard*2
animal filler..
summoned rats(19 activations)
Monitor Lizard
Field of Ruin
and whole s-load of rats. Got eaten mercilessly. These rats fall easily, but they hit now and then and with the bonus from quite unreachable commander(too many rats), they hit for 10 dmg.



Another match was against
Obould
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Direguard
2* Quaggoth
filler
Map with a hole in the middle;)

Killed them without a problem. Sent timber wolf in the middle VA and basiccaly waited for enemies to come. They came to wolf, lost some, came to my band, lost the rest.


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06/09/2006 4:22 AM  
awesome idea.the synergy i like most is vs tier 1 marut bands:-
with 3 couatls you could really play around with the Marut's single minded ability.leaves your ballista untouched.

have you tested this against the kord/marut variation and dual Frenzies?

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06/12/2006 1:21 AM  
I tried a Ballista-based warband at the MD qualifier yesterday. It wasn't your exact build (I'm not good enough of a player to PLAN to use Couatls as blockers for the AB), but it was close, so you might get some useful data anyway. My build was:

Arcane Ballista 48
Couatl 42
Couatl 42
Cleric of Lathander 27
Standardbearer 10
Lantern Bearer 12
Timberwolf 5
Aramil 13
Drow Outpost

I wanted to use Lathander because I expected lots of Sacred Watchers (and I was right), plus the two Searing Light spells are useful for clearing fodder out of the way so that the Ballista shots can hit something that counts. And the increased commander rating helped (I played on my map 5 of 6 games, and my chosen side 5 of 6 games). The Standardbearer and Lantern Bearer were mostly there for blocking, although the each had useful secondary purposes. The standardbearer was there to nerf the Couatl's CFX, so that I could make full use of the ballista's freezing and flaming bolts. Although it never made a difference in my particular games, I expected lots of conceal (there was some, but I never faced any), and I wanted to cut down my chances of ruining a precious ballista shot on a blurred foe. Plus, I had 13 points and one figure left, and couldn't really come up with a better use of the points. At one point, I thought about upgrading the TW to a Warforged Scout and using the last 10 points on a Royal Guard, with the thought being that one of the band's biggest problems would be a fast attacker (Kord, Hill Giant, etc) charging in to try to shut down the ballista. With a RG, at least the charger would take 10 damage for the effort, and denying that one charge attack might make all the difference. I ended up deciding that conceal would be a bigger problem than chargers, and in the end I faced neither all day, so it didn't really matter. I chose Drow Outpost because the outpost side has great LOS to most of the important parts of the map, and even the cave side has a decent firing zone (you just have to move farther to get there). I think Field of Ruin is even better than Drow Outpost from one side (the side with less cover near the starting areas), but if you lose side initiative, the other side really restricts firing lanes. I've never played on Keep of Fallen Kings, so I didn't spend much time trying that one out.

I officially ended the tournament 3-3. Unofficially, I was 4-2, because I should have won a game that we recorded as a loss due to sloppy math. And if I had practiced the band much at all before the tournament, I might have been able to end up 5-1. With lots (and lots and lots) of practice, I might have been able to take any band there. I can't make it to GenCon this year due to prior commitments, so I was mostly playing for fun (and bragging rights), and I could afford to bring a band that I haven't played much before.

First match vs. Lord_Raven's Brady Bunch (3 Frenzied Berzerkers, Rikka, 3 Xeph, Elf Warrior). I won map and side (outpost), but my lack of practice really hurt me. My one key mistake in this game was forgetting about Rikka almost altogether for the first round, and Mark took advantage of that. I had moved the ballista north along the exit squares so that the top half was behind the pit, which gave me nearly complete LOS to most of the board, including all three Victory Areas. On Round 1, Mark moved all his figures around to the bottom of the map, hiding out of LOS. Mark then waylaid Rikka in the outpost, won initiative, then moved her out of LOS and killing Aramil before I had a chance to do anything about it. Then he rushed the Xeph and 2 FBs in near the building (the third was advancing around the top of the map), but out of LOS from the AB. Round 3, he rushed the FBs through the building and managed to base the Couatls with the FBs. I had gotten off a few shots on the third FB, but he moved Rikka up and healed her before she completely burned out. I

Champion of the Thoqqua
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Forums > Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures > D&D Minis - Tournaments > Ballista Report: Dear Mr Fantasy 200pt 6-03-06



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