| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
    
 | | 08/29/2005 12:14 PM |
| | recovered topic 8033 | |
| |
|
NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 08/29/2005 12:14 PM |
| | Well, you can take a look at the stats and decide yourself :-) (http://www.triton-tek.com/aam/). | |
| |
|
Chewbacca
174 Posts
| | 08/29/2005 4:05 PM |
| I'd also like to point out, that 3 sherman tanks equals the cost of 1 tiger tank....
they kept true to the idea that it takes 3 shermans to kill one tiger....
;) | |
Successful trades:
Erebus Moon (C.L.), Elf Shadow (L.K.), greylord78 (M.M.), Dakkon (J.H.), Avon (P.A.), thedip (D.D.), Brazenwood (K.P.), Olive (N.M.), BigBC (B.C.), Cthulhus Librarian (R.M.), bgpopapmp (E.W.), Cha0tic g0od (S.L.E.), NotAnotherDrizztClone (J.M.), arcabious (J.B.), Finley (B.A.), Bolg (P), Lab Monkey (D.T.), Malthus (J.R.), kmelstrom (K.M.), Darthrau (J.R.), smilinirish(M.A.), zmlittle (Z.L.), Sir_Fozm (J.R.), Gaddszooks (J.M.), Meds (M.L.), Ghendar (J.D.), ckissee (C.K), bassman2972 (M.P.), dagonet (B.G.), razing (Z.S.), VultureDoodle (S.F.)
Pending Trades:
Chewbacca151@hotmail.com | Chewbacca's H/W List
| |
| Retired Tank
Vulturedoodle
Sergeant
791 Posts
| | 08/29/2005 4:32 PM |
| Has anyone done the math to see whether the AP special ability of the Easy Eight counterbalances the extra firepower of the Tiger? Cuz on the face of it, the Sherman looks like the better deal in game terms.
Regards,
Steve F. | |
Vaughan: You seem like a thinker. You seem to always be deep in thought. So what are you thinking right now?
Karl: I'm thinking I could use some more o' that potted meat, if you got any extry.
H/W List <|>Trades
| |
|
Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 08/29/2005 11:56 PM |
| From the looks of it, the Tiger absolutely smokes the sherman, though that doesn't mean the Sherman is more efficient.
Tiger
Attack vs Sherman: 17(0-1)/15(2-4)/12(5-10)
Armor: 7/6
Superior Armor (2 hits above armor to score a damaged or destroyed result)
Sherman
Attack vs Vehicle: 13(0-1)/11(2-4)/9(5-8)
Armor: 5/4
The tiger has about even odds of damaging a Sherman out to range 10, and it's absolutely lethal at short range- at range 4 there's a real chance the Sherman will be destroyed outright by a Tiger.
The Sherman, on the other hand, has very low odds of even disrupting the tiger at long range (5-8 hexes, two few than the tiger), let alone damaging it. In order to damage an undisrupted Tiger, you need to score either nine hits from the front or eight hits from the rear. On a disrupted Tiger, you need eight from the front or seven from the rear. A sherman at point blank range has less than a 50% chance of doing seven hits.
In order for three shermsn to be able to tak eout a tiger they'll have to make excellent use of available cover to close to "effective" range (4, which still yields awfully poor results), disrupt the tiger and flank it to get at its rear armor. At that point they'll have a decent (but not great) chance of destroying it before they themselves are destroyed. I'd say you're looking ta a minimum of two smoked Shermans, and that's IF they get nice cover to advance behind.
In other words, Ghendar, it's pretty friggin' accurate. [:)] | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
|
XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 08/30/2005 8:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
A sherman at point blank range has less than a 50% chance of doing seven hits.
It's exactly 50% of 7+ successes with 13 dice. You seem to be using the "average" number of hits for 13 dice not the actual probabilities.
Note; the formulae for a spreadsheet is;
to get exactly X hits with Y dice.
=fact(Y) / fact(x) * fact(y-x)
You have to sum the cells to get the odds of "X or more" hits.
There is an additional complication to the general formulae for the probability of a hit/miss with 1 dice. But with aam, the hit/miss odds are exactly eqault 1,2or3 V's 4,5or6 so you can ignore it.
And the way for lower points cost tanks to "damage" a target with "superior armour:2". Is to score two "disruptions", not try to get 9 hits in 1 shot. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 08/30/2005 8:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vulturedoodle
Has anyone done the math to see whether the AP special ability of the Easy Eight counterbalances the extra firepower of the Tiger? Cuz on the face of it, the Sherman looks like the better deal in game terms.
Regards,
Steve F.
The easy-8 has a 39% chance of a first shot kill on the tiger (I assume you'll save the 1-use abilty for an adjascent/flank shot) Even if the tiger damages the easy-8 in the simultanious fire, that would be a "win" for the sherman. 39% is not quite cost-effective odds for a 54pt unit V's a 63pt unit. The sherman would need to make use of it's other "edges" to be cost-effective. e.g carry a soldier {bazooka, flamethrower or commisar}
However it's odds increase to 78% against a Panther/JagdPanther.
And those odds are in the shermans favour against 49pt and 57pt opponents.
The main "edge" to the easy-8" is that a 100pt force can have 2 shermans/hellcats in support while a 100pt german force can only have 1 Pzkw-IV with the tiger/panther.
| |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 08/30/2005 11:31 AM |
| | What's the Armor Piercing round's effect? I haven't seen it listed anywhere. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
|
XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 08/30/2005 11:59 AM |
| see;
http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=5164&page=2&pp=10
"Chewbaca's post lists all the special abilities.
Armor Piercing Rounds: Once per game, before you roll this unit's attack against a vehicle, you can declare you are using these rounds. If you score two hits against that vehicle with this attack, score an additional hit.
| |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 08/30/2005 12:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
A sherman at point blank range has less than a 50% chance of doing seven hits.
It's exactly 50% of 7+ successes with 13 dice. You seem to be using the "average" number of hits for 13 dice not the actual probabilities.
Yep! I was actually thinking wrong about the number of dice. Doesn't alter my observations that much though...
quote:
Note; the formulae for a spreadsheet is;
to get exactly X hits with Y dice.
=fact(Y) / fact(x) * fact(y-x)
You have to sum the cells to get the odds of "X or more" hits.
There is an additional complication to the general formulae for the probability of a hit/miss with 1 dice. But with aam, the hit/miss odds are exactly eqault 1,2or3 V's 4,5or6 so you can ignore it.
And the way for lower points cost tanks to "damage" a target with "superior armour:2". Is to score two "disruptions", not try to get 9 hits in 1 shot.
[/quote]
The problem, though, is that any one vehicle can't expect to do those two disruptions in one shot. Getting two shermans into point blank range to a tiger is going to get you those two disruptions only about 25% of the time, and getting three shermans into PB range (not taking into consideration, which would be lethal) would give you a bit better than a 50% chance to get you those two disruptions, and that's just getting tanks into range for the initial disruption.
The Tiger, meanwhile, has a 31% chance of destoying an undamaged Sherman outright (at PB) and is virtually guaranteed to kill a disrupted or damaged one. At a range of 10 it has greater than a 60% chance of damaging a Sherman, making it an easy kill the next round. Therefore, you absolutely MUST keep all three Shermans under cover all the way up to the Tiger. Two Shermans just won't cut it going in- they'll be shredded without inflicting a damage result of the tiger most of the time. I'll take your word for it that there's ample cover on most maps, but is there really enough cover to hide 3 vehicles that can't stack completely from a tank that moves almost as fast as they do? Doesn't seem like an easy scenerio for me. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
|
XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 08/30/2005 12:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
I'll take your word for it that there's ample cover on most maps, but is there really enough cover to hide 3 vehicles that can't stack completely from a tank that moves almost as fast as they do? Doesn't seem like an easy scenerio for me.
I didn't believe it either,[)] until I read Chebaca's account of using 2 Crocodiles, and started considering if I could define a counter tactic...
Consider any single hex of blocking terrain (including on map#6). Place a sherman within 2 squares of it.
Then put a Tiger down on any square of the map you want. (ignore the tiger being resticted to speed:3) assume it has infinite speed & put it anywhere.
I believe that if you now move the sherman 4 hexes you can achieve one (or both) of the following;
a) Either the Tiger can't see the sherman.
or;
b) The sherman is adjascent to & on the flank of the tiger.
That simplified exercise is not definitive of the terrain on all 6 maps. But providing the shermans avoid "culdisacs" (e.g. swaps & rivers)
It is indicative of the "weakness" in relying on the LoS from a single heavy tank.
quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
The Tiger, meanwhile, has a 31% chance of destoying an undamaged Sherman outright (at PB) and is virtually guaranteed to kill a disrupted or damaged one. At a range of 10 it has greater than a 60% chance of damaging a Sherman, making it an easy kill the next round.
True, but thats 2 turns of fire from the tiger for each sherman it eliminates. And it doesn't have any turns to spare.
quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
Yep! I was actually thinking wrong about the number of dice. Doesn't alter my observations that much though...
What can I say. The eventual result of all your approximations are a result that's the direct opposite of mine. One (or both) of us are getting the calculations wrong... | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |