| | | | | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
    
River City
 | | 03/14/2006 12:49 PM |
| The reasons for being involved in D&D Minis for me are threefold, RPG, skirmishing, and collecting.
I've been playing the various forms of the D&D RPG for about 20 years and as long as I have friends to play with I'll continue doing so. I started buying D&D minis as a source of inexpensive battle pieces to go with our painted Reaper minis etc... As long as they continue to put out painted D&D minis I'll likely buy them because so far they've been the best option for DM's to use as their monsters and NPC's.
As far as collecting goes, I've always collected something since I was a kid, hockey cards and then comics and since I've gotten out of comics it's become D&D minis. The fact that the collecting ties into another hobby, the playing of D&D minis makes it all the better.
And finaly there's the skirmish game. I never played it really when I first started buying minis. Once or twice with other friends I RPGed with but it's only recently where I've started going out to the local tournaments which of late have been growing in popularity. So long as they continue I'll keep going.
This new game doesn't really hold any interest for me. It has no tie in with D&D which is still my primary reason for having the minis.
As far as collecting them goes, I have no interest. I could collect stamps or old books or whatever just as easily, but if it doesn't tie into something I'm interested in what's the point?
I suppose it gets interesting with the skirmish side. How many people will jump to the new game. Not me. But I can see a fair number of players moving over to try the new thing, the money is tempting but on a local level I don't see it being a factor here. I imagine that those who do go might have gone anyway when the next new thing came out. I think D&D minis will keep it's loyal following for a while yet.
Perhaps if the srimish game does die out Wizards will continue to release D&D minis in RPG packs as some people have asked for numerous times. Perhaps I'll buy those instead.
I think it's a little to early for full panic mode, let's just call this DEFCON 4 now. [:)] | | | |
|
John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 12:58 PM |
| Oh... my... God... [:0]
$1k prize support... even for local tourneys?!
Here I was, happy with prize support such as the lucrative, "Get first pick out of THREE whole boosters, OMG!"
Heck, even now, I see that local DDM tourneys are often supported for free by the players. The company doesn't seem to do much besides throwing a retailer kit at a volunteer once in a while.
I can understand trying to kick start a new product with a bang... but I can't see how you could justify the discrepancy.
Locally, that's a promo mini ($1 to $5 on ebay) vs $1000.
Regionally or Nationally, that could be "a mini I designed!" vs $20k...
I'd like to think customer satisfaction/loyalty meant something to them. Granted, I haven't been playing for very long, but the way they treat older, more loyal players deters me.
I'm not panicking... I'm not THAT emotionally invested yet, and I thankfully have to focus my interest elsewhere right now...
BUT
my nuts are hurting from being kicked so hard. I'll assume it wasn't an intentional attack, but... damn. DDM will probably be the final WotC product I buy from them for a while now. It doesn't feel good being told, "You don't matter to us that much." | |
| |
|
kaiserluger
Warrior
319 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 1:00 PM |
| I think Kiddoc and others are right on.
DDM was originally designed for RPG and Skirmish mirroring the D&D rpg. I think the success of D&D minis for skirmish came in spite of its D20 linkings.
Wizards clearly sees the benefit of having an entirely skirmish focused mini game which can be designed from the ground up. The balance the gameplay should ideally be better and you now have a game/collectable that has one focus as opposed to 2.
I think DDM success surprised them and frankly it surprised me too. I never thought the mini game would be as fun as it is. I have nothing but thanks for them, making the DDM game more then worth my investment.
| |
Kaiserluger - | |
|
Kunimatyu
Sergeant
725 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 1:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by John05
Oh... my... God... [:0]
$1k prize support... even for local tourneys?!
Only about 2 "local" tourneys per state, per year. Your average FLGS's tourneys are unlikely to vary much between DB and DDM in terms of prize support. | |
Champion of the Aboleth, Prophet of Denizens. BW Called Shot: Babau, UH Called Shot: Aspect of Vecna | |
|
jedijon
Sergeant
474 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 1:02 PM |
| Look at how many of those threads we've been getting lately about people leaving the game!
If they DO effectively phase out DDM as a skirmish thang, or even the whole game in general I guess I'll feel like the whole drider thing all over again. But I was cool with it after it was over, and I personally look forward to another game. Even if it is a replacement of the one we've got now. Only time will tell if DDM is celebrating its last birthday, as I'm sure we're NOT going to get that type of announcment, unlike the one that MK got when it tanked.
Besides, how stupid is that to say the game is dead and put out another set? Nope, you're never going to hear that from anyone, least of all the people that actually KNOW whether DDM is dead or not.
I'll go on as before, and either play the new game or not, but deep deep down inside, I think I can admit that I'm ready for another game--but I think right now that game might be 40K. . . . | |
*WoTC Delegate (Chicago)* :=: My Trade Thread :=:
DISPUTED TRADE WITH TREE DRUID!!!!!!!! | |
|
maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 1:11 PM |
| I don't skimish much so the prize money wouldn't make me jump ship. I might buy a few cool looking individual minis but probably wouldn't get into the game. I think even if the skimish side of the game takes a hit the RPG side with keep DDM going, if not strong at least consistant.
The main problem I see is with the decline in quality of the paints with WD, if they pulled off so much manpower and painters for the new game to effect quality/quality control in DDM then thats a problem. I don't know if the two are linked but if it is and if it continues in future sets then that may spell the demise of DDM minis.
The only upside I see for the skimish side,for me anyway, is if enough of the top DDM players jump ship for Dreamblade then I might have a chance in the tournements [:p]. | | | |
|
zdrake
Warrior
279 Posts
Albany, CA (near Berkeley)
| | 03/14/2006 1:29 PM |
| Hmm. This does seem to be some kind of moment of reckoning for our community. To hear Kiddoc and Fenris speak the way they do sends a chill up my spine.
I don't think DDM is going to go away, but I see all the signs of a big shift in corporate focus away from DDM and to Dreamblade. This has numerous subtle implications for the future of our game. I used to work at Microsoft as a computer game producer, and I had a very acute sense of how "important" any given project I was working on was to upper management. When you're working on something that is "strategically important", you get the better, more experinced people on your project. The product planners (i.e. bean counters) will be willing to take a loss in the immediate term because they feel they are building a franchise for the future. You get more marketing dollars, and just as important you get more excitement about your project from the PR folks, etc.
DDM will continue. But if the line falters, will Hasbro stand behind it strongly? Where will Hasbro put their "star" developers and designers? Their best painters? If they negotiate with a magazine to have a CMG featured on the cover, which will they push? The answers are all too obvious.
No corporation would kill a profitable and successful product line, which is what DDM seems to be. But should DDM lag, I think the axe will fall much more quickly now that Dreamblade is out there.
One possible upside to all of this: If Dreamblade is wildly successful, maybe more people will be drawn into CMG gaming as a whole. DDM could actually see an increase in players. It's like Starbucks: while they did wipe out numerous independent coffee shops, they actually built up an enormous gourmet coffee drinking habit among the population, and independent coffee shops can take advantage of that.
Still, it's going to be pretty sad when 23 of us gather for the DDM championship at some Gen Con in the not-too-distant future to duke it out for a custom Marilith repaint, while just accross the aisle 2,784 Dreamblade players compete in a tournament (MCed by Kiera Knightly and Jude Law, no doubt) for half a million dollars and a spot on "American Dreamblade Idol".
Sure, we'll console ourselves that our game is "better", has a richer history, a connection with something that has roots that go back to the 1970s, better strategy, in short that ours is a "real game". We'll tell ourselves how superior we are because we play for the love of the game, rather than for the crass lure of cash or the admiration of the scantily clad cheerleaders WotC has hired to tout their latest creation. As we discuss the latest synergies available in the CG faction, we'll sip our drinks and swap stories about the good old days of the Drider Ban and when people thought the Greycloak Ranger was too powerful. But deep in our disappointed hearts, we'll be sick with envy. The sense of loss and abandonment will gnaw at our hearts like poison (5 points per activation). We'll recognize each other at conventions by the shell-shocked look of pain and betrayal in each others eyes. To dull the unrelenting ache, we'll take to drink, or lose ourselves in MMORPGs. Then, someone will post to the obscure corner of Maxminis still devoted to "obsolete systems" that some poor, benighted soul was found with his head in the oven and the first ever tier one warband centered around the Moon Elf Fighter clutched in his (or her?) cold, dead fist. | |
Champion of Acererak the Demi-Lich (w/ Epic Card)
D&D minis gathering in Berkeley, CA at Games of Berkeley (every other Tuesday, and sometimes every Tuesday.) | |
|
Tactician
Sergeant
888 Posts
| |
PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 1:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tactician
Wow first they make so many mistakes with War Drums now they sucker punch us with this!
Way to go WOTC!!
Can we please keep it civil? From the sounds of it (Read Rav 950's latest thread), painting is automated, and there shouldn't be any connection between this new game and War Drums.
Many of us a frustrated and dismayed, but I think bashing (even via sarcasm) isn't the way to go...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
|
John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 1:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zdrake
Still, it's going to be pretty sad when 23 of us gather for the DDM championship at some Gen Con in the not-too-distant future to duke it out for a custom Marilith repaint, while just accross the aisle 2,784 Dreamblade players compete in a tournament (MCed by Kiera Knightly and Jude Law, no doubt) for half a million dollars and a spot on "American Dreamblade Idol".
Sure, we'll console ourselves that our game is "better", has a richer history, a connection with something that has roots that go back to the 1970s, better strategy, in short that ours is a "real game". We'll tell ourselves how superior we are because we play for the love of the game, rather than for the crass lure of cash or the admiration of the scantily clad cheerleaders WotC has hired to tout their latest creation. As we discuss the latest synergies available in the CG faction, we'll sip our drinks and swap stories about the good old days of the Drider Ban and when people thought the Greycloak Ranger was too powerful. But deep in our disappointed hearts, we'll be sick with envy. The sense of loss and abandonment will gnaw at our hearts like poison (5 points per activation). We'll recognize each other at conventions by the shell-shocked look of pain and betrayal in each others eyes. To dull the unrelenting ache, we'll take to drink, or lose ourselves in MMORPGs. Then, someone will post to the obscure corner of Maxminis still devoted to "obsolete systems" that some poor, benighted soul was found with his head in the oven and the first ever tier one warband centered around the Moon Elf Fighter clutched in his (or her?) cold, dead fist.
HAHA. That was poetic. Knowing you... it was nothing unexpected. ΖD]
It sounds like some movie archetype that I just can't place my finger on. Was there a specific movie?
DDM players don't die... they just fade away... [V] | |
| |
|
robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 1:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I wish D&D could potentially buy me a new car or cover my daughter's chemotherapy bills.
Reading this made me sad and even more annoyed at WotC at the same time. [:(]
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
| 
Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by griffrat
quote:
Originally posted by Thailfi
....As an RPG collector only, I can tell you for a fact that this new product has a 0% chance of getting me to spend even a single dollar on it. I hope they don't fracture their market so much that all of their mini products go down the tubes.
Same here. I am looking at the only good thing as being some cool singles. The last thing that I need right now is another "game" to get into. Granted, this is me and I am but one lone person....
That makes three of us. There is no chance I'll be buying this game. | |
Have: Cat; Want: Storm Giant
Champion of Anything Dragonlance
Before trading, please check the Disputed Trades Thread | |
|
orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:11 PM |
| I have little to no interest in the new game.
That kind of prize support brings out a lot of ass-clowns.
That said WOTC competing agaist themselves is not a bad thing from a marketing point of view. It is better to split your own market then to share it with someone else. This appoarch has been use by many companies.
the classic example is
P&G has 12 of the top 20 selling detergents in North America. Including many that market directly agaist each other.
| |
Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
| |
|
Tactician
Sergeant
888 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
quote:
Originally posted by Tactician
Wow first they make so many mistakes with War Drums now they sucker punch us with this!
Way to go WOTC!!
Can we please keep it civil? From the sounds of it (Read Rav 950's latest thread), painting is automated, and there shouldn't be any connection between this new game and War Drums.
Many of us a frustrated and dismayed, but I think bashing (even via sarcasm) isn't the way to go...
Pat E
What is uncivil?
WOTC produces War Drums and this new game. FACT!
War Drums has/had a bunch of errors in it. FACT!
WOTC cut back on awards to those who won in quilifiers. FACT!
WOTC comes out with a new game and grants 1k and 10k awards to a game that has NO following yet. FACT!
FACE THE FACTS!! I am not bashing Wizards I am just looking at the facts.
I am not disrespecting anyone or a group of people. I am discussing products produced by WOTC.
The facts speak for themselves.
Sorry | |
Trade Topic & Reviews of Dwarven Forge & Finished Trades& Champion of Fzoul ChembrylD&D Miniatures Played to the Max | |
|
John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
Can we please keep it civil? From the sounds of it (Read Rav 950's latest thread), painting is automated, and there shouldn't be any connection between this new game and War Drums.
Painting is automated, but I don't think QA is (or should be [:p]). | |
| |
|
Username
Warlord
5690 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:25 PM |
| | When something new comes out (whether it be a movie, tv show, book, car, toothpaste, clothing line) it's going to receive MAJOR support for the launch. I DOUBT WOTC will keep up that kind of prize support for long. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
|
PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
That said WOTC competing agaist themselves is not a bad thing from a marketing point of view. It is better to split your own market then to share it with someone else. This appoarch has been use by many companies.
the classic example is
P&G has 12 of the top 20 selling detergents in North America. Including many that market directly agaist each other.
That's a very interesting perspective. It obviously what WizKids was trying to do as well (and still are, i.e. there new HorrorClix game).
I'm not convinced however. From an outsiders perspective, DDM has found success because of it's 3 tier marketing approach (RPG, Collectors, and Skirmish). They obviously thought that Skrimish had some legs, as they redesigned the boxes to cater more towards that market. However, if a large percentage of those competitive skirmish players go to DreamBlade, will that weakened part of the marketing approach still be strong enough to fully support the DDM line?
I suspect: NO. Why? because those who have been in the line for a while have all the RPG figures they "need". Sure they will buy some more, but likely not in the volumes they did in the past. That was always my impression as to why they were tyring to insure that skirmish took off, because they were the repeat customers that WotC really needed.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
| The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tactician
Wow first they make so many mistakes with War Drums now they sucker punch us with this!
Way to go WOTC!!
Watch it ... This is very close to drawing an Iron Fist from Merric. Civility please. | | | |
|
orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
That said WOTC competing agaist themselves is not a bad thing from a marketing point of view. It is better to split your own market then to share it with someone else. This appoarch has been use by many companies.
the classic example is
P&G has 12 of the top 20 selling detergents in North America. Including many that market directly agaist each other.
That's a very interesting perspective. It obviously what WizKids was trying to do as well (and still are, i.e. there new HorrorClix game).
I'm not convinced however. From an outsiders perspective, DDM has found success because of it's 3 tier marketing approach (RPG, Collectors, and Skirmish). They obviously thought that Skrimish had some legs, as they redesigned the boxes to cater more towards that market. However, if a large percentage of those competitive skirmish players go to DreamBlade, will that weakened part of the marketing approach still be strong enough to fully support the DDM line?
I suspect: NO. Why? because those who have been in the line for a while have all the RPG figures they "need". Sure they will buy some more, but likely not in the volumes they did in the past. That was always my impression as to why they were tyring to insure that skirmish took off, because they were the repeat customers that WotC really needed.
Pat E
I certainly don't disagree with you there. I am certainly going to be slowing down my buying simply because I have almost all the RPG figures I need. I am soon going to be down to booster as opposed to cases and by this time next year I might just buy singles.
my current mini count is just under 2200 | |
Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
| |
|
Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tactician
WOTC cut back on awards to those who won in quilifiers. FACT!
Can you cite a reference for this? I had heard that winners of this years qualifiers will get travel and hotel accommodations for 2 at GenCon Indy. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
|
robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
quote:
Originally posted by Tactician
Wow first they make so many mistakes with War Drums now they sucker punch us with this!
Way to go WOTC!!
Watch it ... This is very close to drawing an Iron Fist from Merric. Civility please.
As edgy as that statement is ... well, it encapsulates my exact feeling about this.
| |
To the list with you!
Email: robby.anderson@yahoo.com | H/W List | My Trade Interface | Reference Thread/Completed Trades
| |
|
Tactician
Sergeant
888 Posts
| |
johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tactician
WOTC cut back on awards to those who won in quilifiers.
I've seen reference to this cut back a couple of times now. Can someone point me toward a thread that elaborates? | | | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/14/2006 2:38 PM |
| Wow, this is potentially very good for me. I mean, with a bunch of top-rated players jumping ship, I might actually have a chance at the qualifiers and the championship this year.
[:)]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:41 PM |
| Tactician, do you really need someone to spell it out? You really don't understand the difference between being polite and being rude? I find that hard to believe. I think you're really trying to say that you feel being rude is justified in this case. Well, it isn't, and even if it was, it's not welcome here.
johnny.quest, some people think that "redistribution = cutting back"
What really happened was that the '04 round of qualifiers was top-heavy: there were few qualifiers, but the winner of each got an all-expense paid trip to GenCon. In '05, the same amount of money was redistributed such that there were more qualifiers with smaller prizes. That's not cutting back, but those with an axe to grind like to pretend it is.
| |
Read my championship tournament report.
Successful trades:
xBrendanx | Cha0tic G0od | ThatOneGuy | BrazenWood | Finley | Arris | Drift x2 | Neonmage | Cthulu's Librarian | Kalvos | PatEllis15 | Paradox1995 | Rhane | Gildogg | Darthrau | Vrecknidj x2 | erian_7 | Octavius Drowslayer x2 | stheis | Garate | thenameless | Lucky_ksu | ckissee | Corim Danex | Schooly_D | Username | |
|
robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
When something new comes out (whether it be a movie, tv show, book, car, toothpaste, clothing line) it's going to receive MAJOR support for the launch. I DOUBT WOTC will keep up that kind of prize support for long.
True enough to a point but DDM didn't get anywhere near that kind of support. Probably because they didn't have the money to push such a thing. So now that they have proven CMGs they are putting this new thing out using the money from them. It's obvious to me that they are choosing to shove the DDM, SWM and AAM players aside for this new game. Personally I feel if it backfires on them and Dreamblade tanks hard it's their own fault for slamming us players.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
|
Tactician
Sergeant
888 Posts
| |
robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
johnny.quest, some people think that "redistribution = cutting back"
What really happened was that the '04 round of qualifiers was top-heavy: there were few qualifiers, but the winner of each got an all-expense paid trip to GenCon. In '05, the same amount of money was redistributed such that there were more qualifiers with smaller prizes. That's not cutting back, but those with an axe to grind like to pretend it is.
True, but it also isn't expanding the scene, nor keeping the rewards in line with the sales growth - and it certainly isn't a $20K release tournament nor $50K championship.
I think that is the hardest part of it. We've been struggling at the local level to get and keep interest with virtually no help from Wizards (in fact, they've been exceedingly difficult to work with). A new campaign like this certainly isn't going to help, and it will definitely harm our efforts.
| |
To the list with you!
Email: robby.anderson@yahoo.com | H/W List | My Trade Interface | Reference Thread/Completed Trades
| |
|
Stabmastaarson
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kunimatyu
For those of you freaking out about the $1k tourneys...yes, that's *way* more significant than DDM, maybe way too much so. But, don't extrapolate from that and assume that your store will be holding weekly or even monthly tournaments for that much. Ain't gonna happen.
What this makes me as an RPGer wonder is whether or not WotC would be better off altering D&D Minis to be more RPG-focused. We've already heard that set amount may drop to 40 figs instead of 60, and if most/all of those are monsters geared for RPG instead of tons of LG/CG filler, well, that might actually be the way to go. There could even be the possibility of dropping statcards entirely to cut costs. I know that I might not be unhappy with cheaper boosters containing fewer but more useful RPG-centric figs.
Does the 20K make me interested in playing Dreamblade? Probably not...those booster prices will get un-fun very very fast, and a collection of Dreamblade is nigh-worthless after the game goes away, unlike D&D Minis.
Oh, one other thing: Given how well DDM is selling, it'd be utter madness for WotC to drop the line. It's really helping keep RPG sales aloft, and so regardless of what happens, I think we can definitely count on continuing to receive lots of neat monsters.
Excellent post, I agree with you. I skirmish on occasion and I enjoy it (esp. the sealed events), but my primary reason for collecting DDM is for RPG. If they cut stat cards, dropped the number of figs and made more monsters/NPC+PC proxies I'd be quite happy. Skirmish was kind of icing on the cake for me.
That being said, I think they will continue to support the product line as it does help out D&D as a whole, and I think they might ramp up prize support a bit. This Dreamblade stuff would seem to be the M:tG of the minis domain. Personally, I don't see it lasting all that long. I've watched all the wizkids and other miniature game players die off at my FLGS. The core D&D mythos is part of what keeps the game strong. Dreamblade is just....stuff. No matter how talented the design team is. | |
Better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not
My Have/Want list
Trades pending with:
Competed trades (11) ares71,pagansexy,bradu,Unearthed Arcana, Garate,Arbados dobblegog, blackthorne,aussie_jim, spikegif, Lady Bast | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:49 PM |
| As someone who collects for both skirmish and RPG, my initial reaction to this is that I feel like I'm being unfairly squeezed. [B)]
If all the competitive play is in Dreamblade, and all the RPG value is in DDM, how much more money would I have to spend per year on this stuff? The way I justify the amount I do spend is that I can use the minis for multiple purposes. The 40mm scale on Dreamblade rules that justification out in my mind.
I've been getting a lot better as a player and I was looking forward to my first real shot at a constructed qualifier. It is distressing to think that it might be for the last real championship. [V]
I'm not looking forward to having to master an entirely new game. I'm likely to just give up on the competitive scene if our local guys switch games. If Derry decides to switch, for example, that would pretty much seal the Bay Area I would think. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 2:51 PM |
| I think alot of people have it right. They are doing what they wanted to do. Create a CMG community who play multiple games (DDM, SWM, AAM) and then incorporate a "better" skirmish rules set and make it into their premier "tournament" CMG.
I think they are actually not trying to lose DDM Skirmishers.. I think they are trying to appeal to the broader audience and pull in some of the MtG players as well. Simplify the rules, make the game more accessible and introduce a highly competitive environment. Im okay with that.
Ive already emailed my FLGS to pre-order a case. And they know Im gonna be buying WDQ as well. *shrug* Im okay with it. Hell, Im kinda excited about a game that might not require an inch solid of manuals, FAQ, errata, clarifications and floor rules. "Wait, I know its in here somewhere" or "does this guy have cover from melee reach?" | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
| |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/14/2006 3:16 PM |
| You're all talking like this bastard of DDM has already taken over the world.
*Most of the purchase market for DDM is driven by RPG*. Although most of us skirmish, we represent a significant portion of the people that do play skirmish - and we don't represent a majority of the people buying boosters.
These figures are not being designed to support D&D play. That means that it has a steeeeeeeeep hill to climb to make it as a complete stand-alone game.
This game could make it ... but my money is on DDM outliving it. DDM has too much support potential ... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6810 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/14/2006 3:22 PM |
| | I, too, am quite disappointed that they are releasing yet another CMG. If they have that much money to help a miniatures line expand quickly, I think they would have helped themselves more by pouring that money into DDM prizes. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 3:24 PM |
| | I think there are two worries being expressed. One worry is that the DDM line may be discontinued, and I agree that it seems unlikely. The other worry is that the support and growth of competetive DDM skirmish play will be diminished, and this worry seems legitimate. | | | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/14/2006 3:26 PM |
| | Does anyone see the 'buy in' cost for the $1K or $10K tourneys? I can't seem to find it ... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 3:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
I think there are two worries being expressed. One worry is that the DDM line may be discontinued, and I agree that it seems unlikely. The other worry is that the support and growth of competetive DDM skirmish play will be diminished, and this worry seems legitimate.
Yeah I'm not worried about the former at the moment. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 3:29 PM |
| Well, it's not just the prize support that's downing me.
It's that they are stealing potential DDM and SWM players. I'd rather see new people addicted to DDM (so I finally have some newb players like myself to practice against), than this new game. [}:)] | |
| |
|
lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 3:30 PM |
| Musings, after further reflection:
Some people are loosely complaining about how DreamBlade is getting 1K local tournaments and comparing that to retailer kits that DDM local tournaments receive. Although DreamBlade is getting far more prize support than DDM, the above comparison ignores the fact that only 20 events a month get the 1K backing. There were about 20 DDM qualifiers last year, and I remember many people complaining that there were no local qualifiers[:)]. If they rotate these 1K events around, you may only have a handful occur within driving distance in the course of a year. So these tournaments go beyond the typical local tourney.
Since Dreamblade is a skirmish-only game (with no established backstory, I don't imagine many non-gamers will collect them), WotC has no choice but to make a splash with prize support to draw people to the game. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, WotC has many games out there chugging along at a low level (Duelmasters, Neopets, Xiaolin Showdown?). These lines may well be profitable, but they are not the big hits a company WotC's size needs. DreamBlade doesn't even have the TV\Web tie-ins that some of those above products have, so big prizes are the only way to get this game played.
Given the prize support for DreamBlade, it is clear that WotC does intend for this to be a big hit, and expects this to be their premier CMG. Big companies need to score big, and I think it's safe to say that DDM doe not have (and probably never had) any hope of being a huge OP success (20K, 50K, 100K players etc.). I don't begrudge WotC their move at all.
I'm no longer upset about DDM's loss of the role of top dog CMG. First, OP has taken the steps we are all familiar with to improve the skirmish/tournament scene. We don't lose those benefits just because some other game gets more attention (it's not a zero sum game). I don't expect DDM to get any less OP attention than before - DDM is a pretty low maintenance affair to keep running on the current course. Given our minimal needs, and WotCs past record of customer service and product support, I see no reason to fear they will cut off all DDM OP support. After all, you can still sanction Risk2210 DCI tournaments and play in a Championship tournament at GenCon!
Again, I don't think that not gaining support we were never going to receive anyway constitutes "losing" support. Or think of it this way: Players whose passion is Axis and Allies Minis got into the game knowing they would never be the number 1 mini game at WotC, and knowing that they would never receive lavish prize support, but they manage to love their game nonetheless. They don't fear for the line just because some others are more successful. Why should we?
In fact, the proliferation of CMGs WotC is putting out (Axis and Allies Naval miniatures is coming out around GenCon as well) indicates to me that WotC has found a way to make such games profitable at lower volumes than they could handle at first. That tolerance for lower volume is another strong argument that DDM will continue to be supported for some time to come, even if there is some defection in the ranks of skirmishers.
It seems to me that the emotional impact some of us felt upon this announcement (at least this is how I felt) comes not from losing anything concrete; we have not, and for reasons I go into above, probably will not suffer much diminution in support for our favorite product. Rather, we are finally facing the stark fact that our game, which we think worthy of "hitting the big time", will not be the smash hit it deserves to be. We will have to be content backing a game that will plug along as merely a solid success. There are worse fates. But I'll admit, it makes me feel like the laborers from the parable hired early to labor in the hot sun watch those hired later in the afternoon receive the same (or in this case, greater) daily wage[:)].
Of | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
|
sage_raistlin
Sergeant
377 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 3:30 PM |
| Well if this does take off and they keep up that level of prize support, it will make it easier for everyone to get the rarer D&D figures as they pricing on them will take a hit.
They are playing with fire here, either way they risk a good chance of burning themselves. I think if this does take off good, hopefully they'll shift the focus of the DDM line to RPG which will help it out and could bring in new people.
It would be nice to pick up sets of figures geared towards the RPG with the existing figures. I'm sure a lot of people would like the chance to be able to just buy an undead pack instead of chasing all the different ones down.
I've never played skirmish, but that 20,000 does get your attention. If they had that kind of prizes with the DDM I may have very well went after the skirms.
On another note, if this is set up like DDM and SWM with the common, uncommon, rare, it will really drive up the price of figures if they keep up the prize level. It will end up being like the Black lotus and other cards in Magic. | |
Hello Boys, I'm Back
Vindicated Champion of the Bat
(not pretty, but it still counts) | |
|
Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 3:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
I think that is the hardest part of it. We've been struggling at the local level to get and keep interest with virtually no help from Wizards (in fact, they've been exceedingly difficult to work with). A new campaign like this certainly isn't going to help, and it will definitely harm our efforts.
This is exactly my frustration. I haven't sacrificed my marriage or sanity, or anything like that, but I have kicked butt locally to try and build of DDM and the scene in the ATL. I fear this game is just going to keep new players and other gamers away from DDM. | | | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 |
|
|