Orc Mage
Skirmisher
23 Posts
    
 | | 09/06/2006 1:20 AM |
| Here's one we're debating at the moment.
Wording on Bodyguard tells you that you must assign damage to disrupt or destroy him before assigning to anything else.
Charge tells you to target a figure before making the roll.
Since you have no damage to assign at that point can you then ignore the Bodyguard and target another figure in the cell ?
Working purely from the wording then you'd have to say yes as you are not assigning damage but targetting an attack,.
Or do you reackon that that is just an oversight in the phrasing?
Does anyone know if there is an official ruling on this question ? | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 09/06/2006 1:46 AM |
| This has been discussed on WotC forum.
The answer from WotC_Steve (who seems to be "official") was;
You can target something other than the bodyguard. But the bodyguard prevents you from doing any damage to that target.
So it's pointless to target anything except the bodyguard.
The same applies to warpstrike.
With Ambush the situation is worse, since your only allowed to target the creature moving into the cell. So if a bodyguard is curerntly in the cell, you can't do any damage when another creature moves in (unless it's another bodyguard)
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 09/06/2006 7:34 PM |
| I ain't official or nuthin. But...
With the wording of the abilities in question, I would say you can target anyone you want with the caveat that damage has to be assigned to the bodyguard first.
Effectively the bodyguard is absorbing the damage another figure is taking. Jumping in front of the bullet so to speak. If enough damage is generated on the roll to disrupt the bodyguard it is disrupted, any remaining damage is then assigned to the orriginal target.
The Bodyguard ability says nothing about targeting, only damage assignment.
So;
If your Brighthammer enters a cell that has an Inspired Samurai and a Book of Nothing you anounce that the BoN is the target. Roll your 6 dice if you get say 7 total damage 5 of it goes to the Samurai who is disrupted, the other 2 goes to the Book who is also Disrupted.
That has been our in-store ruling. We will change it if something official is posted. At the moment there is no GuyF to do that though. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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mantic
Skirmisher
15 Posts
| | 09/07/2006 3:23 AM |
| Posted By Prince o the Raven Banner on 09/06/2006 7:34 PM
The Bodyguard ability says nothing about targeting, only damage assignment.
So;
If
your Brighthammer enters a cell that has an Inspired Samurai and a Book
of Nothing you anounce that the BoN is the target. Roll your 6 dice if
you get say 7 total damage, it does nothing to the Book which can't be
assigned damage until you disrupt or kill the samurai.
fixed
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 09/07/2006 4:00 AM |
| Posted By Prince o the Raven Banner on 09/06/2006 7:34 PM
I ain't official or nuthin. But...
With the wording of the abilities in question, I would say you can target anyone you want with the caveat that damage has to be assigned to the bodyguard first.
Effectively the bodyguard is absorbing the damage another figure is taking. Jumping in front of the bullet so to speak. If enough damage is generated on the roll to disrupt the bodyguard it is disrupted, any remaining damage is then assigned to the orriginal target.
The Bodyguard ability says nothing about targeting, only damage assignment.
So;
If your Brighthammer enters a cell that has an Inspired Samurai and a Book of Nothing you anounce that the BoN is the target. Roll your 6 dice if you get say 7 total damage 5 of it goes to the Samurai who is disrupted, the other 2 goes to the Book who is also Disrupted.
That has been our in-store ruling. We will change it if something official is posted. At the moment there is no GuyF to do that though.
Your correct that the bodyguard does not affect targetting. But incorrect about about the rest.
Don't think of it as the bodyguard "jumping in front of the bullet", assume it's parrying with it's sword.
Unlike bodyguard abilities in ddm & swm the dreamblade one does not say you transfer the damage. It says the damage can't be allocated until certain conditions are met. The reason "combat" damage hits the bodyguard is that the Combat rules allow damage from that type of attack to be assigned to the bodyguard. That does not apply to warpstrike damage.
Check the WotC_forum for Steve_WotC answers on this. (I'd post a link to a relevant aswer, but that forum is down currently)
An interesting way to get Official rules answers is to try the Judge exam... There are some surprisingly relevant questions in that, and it gives the correct answer, even if you get it wrong.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Orc Mage
Skirmisher
23 Posts
| | 09/07/2006 11:54 PM |
| Meantime I discovered that this has been clarified on the Wizards Board.
Deal is as XAos says, you may target who you like but can't apply the damage unless you targetted the Bodyguard. | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 09/08/2006 1:45 PM |
| Hmmm,
That is unfortunate. My above example is one of the few cases where it would matter however the Bodyguard ability is more powerful than I would have liked. I wish that Targeting was a covered by Bodyguard text.
Just to clarify,
Warpstrike BYPASSES the Bodyguard?
This would seem to further murk up the issue.
I am hoping I read that wrong, as Warpstrikes target an enemy that is non-local. Thus far we have followed the rule that any thing may be targeted so long as the Bodyguard takes the initial brunt of the damage. If it is the other way around it would seem preferable that the text would require targeting the Bodyguard first.
Both Warpstrike and Charge are special attacks outside the regular combat parameters. To have the Bodyguard ability work one way for one and the opposite for the other is a nuisance.
Just to complicate the issue how would you interpret the Bomb ability of the Blood Wolf, in a cell that contained an opposing Bodyguard?
I've been meaning to take the Judge Test, just haven't found the time. Apparently time will have to be made. Thank you for the insight. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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mantic
Skirmisher
15 Posts
| | 09/08/2006 9:13 PM |
| Warpstrike does not bypass bodyguard nor does charge or ambush either. I
assume bomb has the same limitations. The damage would wait until the
end of combat and then you would need to assign enough damage to at least
disrupt the body guards before applying the rest of combat and bomb
damage to the other creatures.
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Orc Mage
Skirmisher
23 Posts
| | 09/09/2006 10:41 AM |
| Posted By mantic on 09/08/2006 9:13 PM
Warpstrike does not bypass bodyguard nor does charge or ambush either. I assume bomb has the same limitations. The damage would wait until the end of combat and then you would need to assign enough damage to at least disrupt the body guards before applying the rest of combat and bomb damage to the other creatures.
Unfortunately you have to assign the Blade Damage first so Bomb damage can only be applied to the other figures in the cell if enough was done to disrupt or kill the bodygaurd first, perhaps a second blade like Crit in the cell to apply the damage to the bodygaurd before moving around the others.
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 09/10/2006 5:23 PM |
| Yep and that sucks.
The Bodyguards just get better and better. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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DMG
Sneak
107 Posts
Dallas
| | 09/11/2006 3:59 AM |
| | Of course the saving grace here is that all you have to do is 5 measly points of damage to disrupt the bodyguared and do damage to other more important figs. The Samurai can be handy but is certainly not gamebreaking or broken and no one seems to be using the Zungar. | | | |
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Orc Mage
Skirmisher
23 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 11:59 PM |
| Posted By DMG on 09/11/2006 3:59 AM
Of course the saving grace here is that all you have to do is 5 measly points of damage to disrupt the bodyguared and do damage to other more important figs. The Samurai can be handy but is certainly not gamebreaking or broken and no one seems to be using the Zungar.
When you compare what it does to its spawning cost it is a very powerful piece, 5 measly points of damage means you're looking at 6 dice minimum to be playing the odds well in order to disrupt it, that's before you look at damaging anything else in the cell. For a better than 60% chance of getting what you need you're rolling one more di than you need damage, the Bodygaurds create a huge upward curve in required dice in order to do anything positive in a cell.
Obviously there are Blade abilities but it is not tactically sound to step into a cell needing Blades to have an outcome, they should be added value to the roll you shouldn't be praying for them. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 09/12/2006 2:15 AM |
| It was obvious that creatures with bodyguard need a different formulae to calculate cost-effectiveness. OrcMage's analysis suggests the formulae is something like
cost-effectiveness = defense / spawncost
i.e. a spawn=4 Samurai requires your opponent to concentrate at least spawn=6 of creatures to nutralise it's ability. So it's cost-effective to play.
Which also indicates why the Zungar bodyguard isn't played. It's spawn-9 and needs only spawn-7 to nutralise it.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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DMG
Sneak
107 Posts
Dallas
| | 09/12/2006 5:01 AM |
| Posted By Orc Mage on 09/11/2006 11:59 PM
When you compare what it does to its spawning cost it is a very powerful piece, 5 measly points of damage means you're looking at 6 dice minimum to be playing the odds well in order to disrupt it, that's before you look at damaging anything else in the cell. For a better than 60% chance of getting what you need you're rolling one more di than you need damage, the Bodygaurds create a huge upward curve in required dice in order to do anything positive in a cell.
I understand what your saying and I don't disagree. I just think that its not that big of a deal. I have played against bodyguards, even in multiples, and yes they are effective for a time. I have yet to see one cause me any real heartache in a game, though.
Nuisance? Absolutely. Gamebreaking? No.
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Orc Mage
Skirmisher
23 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 9:36 AM |
| | Agreed, it's not game breaking but it does impact on the choices you make which makes it a strong figure. | |
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