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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
    
 | | 11/16/2006 9:12 AM |
| I think in the right warpstrike band the blade 5 warpstriker can do well... think its called doomsinger.
I like book of nothing, but thats only a personal thing, can be great with loads of attack dice. If you believe inquest( well i said if ) then unspeakable brothers should be core.
Definitely an if...
Also for extended you could add:
Nevret warmaster, five rerolls is nice,
and also doctor ape.. I rather like his raise ability. | |
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Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/16/2006 10:16 AM |
| Thanks, I'll consider the suggestions and see if I can write up some more good blurbs for the madness toolkit. I missed the "may" on the Cyclopean Sprite, but I think I'd like to see or hear about it in action before I call it a "core" piece.
Doctor Ape - I'm not impressed and I've heard few people tout its capabilities in skirmish
Nevret Warmaster - yes, 5 rerolls are nice, but his stats are painfully bad for the cost, so I'm not sure I ought to add him to the toolkit
Ooktolok - I'll go ahead and add him, but with the caviat that he should not be played in a metagame that like bodyguards
All-seeing Mage - I assume you mean extended because of his abilities in a Janus band - are Janus bands competitive?
Lockjaw - really? Her stats just make me cringe. Is lockdown really powerful enough to consider playing her?
What about the Ouroboros? For the cost, the stats are quite good, and as long as you're not forced to use his blade when you don't want to, there are times it can actually be a positive blade ability (banishing an ally that would otherwise be destroyed). | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 11/17/2006 2:10 AM |
| Dr.Ape;
I traded for one early, because it has a special ability that nothing else (in the base set) matches. The few times I have seen it played it died after at most 1 use of it's ability. And the Power=1 made it fairly ineffectual in combat. Arguably it was extended in the base set. But Baxar's abilities outclass it so much that it's certainly out of the metagame.
All-seeing mage; Janus warpstrike was viable in the base set. I played against a base-set janus warstrike design in a 1K tournament using Baxar's & trashed it. I havn't yet seen an uprated version of it using Baxar's creatures but there might be one. ??? Mainly I think that madness-extended should have some warpstrikers. So I listed what seem to be the best 3 at the moment.
Lockjaw; I agree the stats are pathetic for a spawn-8 creature. My spreadsheet says it's the absolute Least cost-effective stats in the game. But the special ability should make hammerhead a lot more predicatable. So I'll be keeping one in my collection. And I'm moderatly diligent about disposing of unplayable units. e.g. I no longer own any pick-picks.
Ouroboros; It's stats are essentially identical to Faceless Stalker. You will only rarely see a different result between fortune-2 & an extra 2 power.
It's blade is non-optional and usually a liability. Overall I'd prefer the faceless stalker. Unless you can design a warband where "Fade" becomes an active & repeatable advantage e.g. does the combo of Doomball + Ouroboros work ?
and would it be strong enough to play even if it did work ? | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 11/17/2006 9:14 AM |
| | I should think from wordings that the doomball trick works as blades happen at start of combat, and doomball says sacrifice as end of combat(hehe i knew something..) | |
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Thus said froffenhoffer
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Scud-O
Sneak
117 Posts
| | 11/17/2006 9:28 AM |
| Posted By XAos on 11/17/2006 2:10 AM
*snip*
Ouroboros;
It's stats are essentially identical to Faceless Stalker. You will only
rarely see a different result between fortune-2 & an extra 2 power.
It's
blade is non-optional and usually a liability. Overall I'd prefer the
faceless stalker. Unless you can design a warband where "Fade" becomes
an active & repeatable advantage e.g. does the combo of Doomball +
Ouroboros work ?
and would it be strong enough to play even if it did work ?
It
does, indeed, work. Even more impressive is the
Ouroboros/Buzzclaw synergy. In a M/P (with a splash of V,
perhaps?), this would be a nice trick.
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 11/17/2006 10:29 AM |
| Thanks for that idea Scud-O. Ouroborus & Buzzclaw. Could solve the weakness of buzzclaw warbands. i.e. you spawn all your buzzclaws and then your best combo stops working for the rest of the game.
Most usefull V units would be Pearlthorn castle or Lunar handmaiden to advance the ragedrake.
Ok, Ouroborus gets my vote for madness-extended. Now where did I "file" those ouroboros I had ?
Certainly not with the Pick-picks. Which I cut from their bases, dumped the figures in a waste bin & I'm now using the bases to mount proxy figures.
You can tell my opinion of the art work on the pick-pick can't you  | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 11/17/2006 10:40 AM |
| | We get the pickpick thingy now... Certainly not with the Pick-picks. Which I cut from their bases, dumped the figures in a waste bin & I'm now using the bases to mount proxy figures.
You can tell my opinion of the art work on the pick-pick can't you | |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/17/2006 12:58 PM |
| Yes, Ouroboros/Doomball is mentioned in the Baxar's War clarifications on the WotC boards. Like Xaos, I'm not quite sure it's a viable option, though--maybe, since it makes the Doomball a more powerful, slightly more durable (difficult to disrupt), but more expensive Jack-in-the-box. I had forgotten the Ouroboros/Buzzclaw discussion. That's what was itching the back of my mind as the real reason to consider the Ouroboros.
On the Fleshworm Broodshire, what's the reason for including it? Is it just to give a weenie horde a chance in the late game when they would normally be running out of things to spawn, or is there a more compelling reason for including it?
Thanks for the additional input. Now for the updates. Anybody see any more updates that should be made to the Valor, Passion or Fear toolkits? I'm still thinking about the Hammerhead in passion. Xaos, you may be right that it should be core, but I'd appreciate a few more votes on that one and some input on the right way to play it. | |
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 11/19/2006 11:43 AM |
| | I agreee to hammerhead in core, I would add flame harrower to extended as 5 assault in spawn can be nice. ALso would add glaive scorpion to fear extended. | |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/19/2006 5:15 PM |
| | Ah, yes, forgot the Glaive Scorpion again. | |
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 11/19/2006 11:59 PM |
| | I will chime in on the side of the Nevret Warmaster: 1 goes into every madness band I build, because if you are rolling around 8 attack dice, 5 rerolls can set up some ridiculous strikes. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/20/2006 2:16 PM |
| Okay, I made a bunch more updates. I even dropped the Pick-pick from the madness toolkit (though I still consider it useful if you can't fill out that spawn slot with Chaos Puppeteers), mainly because I thought the list was getting too long. It may still be a little heavy in the extended list. Dropped Bladehound from the passion toolkit, too. I also consider that a useful piece, but I realized that it didn't add anything except 6 power, which is a capability easily duplicated if you have a deep bench of pieces to pick from. I moved Hammerhead to core on passion, based on recommendations. Anybody watching Vassal to make sure that guy isn't a red herring?
I thought about the Nevret Warmaster and added him in. Have I given an adequate explanation as to when and why to include him? Are these toolkits reasonably complete? If so, it might be time to "publish" them to a new thread and sticky it. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 8:09 PM |
| I would like to see a Warpstriker make a core slot in the Madness kit.
Unfortunately, at present the Doomsinger seems the most reliable. The Mage is strong but situational. Neither made the kit at Core level. I've been playing with warpstrikes alot lately but it still seems gimicky.
The Unspeakable Brothers are not that bad, especially in a Darkheart cell. As a Janus creature they are strong support for the ASMages, and provide more range ability. While they disrupt easily, that can't be weighed against them in a Madness discussion. Is the Spawn the only drawback?
So far I like it, and will continue to play it. Not Core.
I think these kits are relatively complete. Well written and ready for alt thread stickyfication. I'd say go ahead and post it. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/20/2006 8:15 PM |
| | I made a couple more modifications after reading the 10K blog. I don't have any Brighthammer Avengers, so I missed the fact that they are bloodcut and can therefore get thrown around by the Kitsune. That pushes up both pieces. I'll look again to see if I need to consider any other changes. Stag Zealot and Boneclan Hunter in the top 8? How? Why? | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 11/26/2006 12:36 AM |
| I am seeing Stag Zealot locally in Bloodcut themey bands. He is a reasonable "Blade dump".
As to "How,Why", this game has dice and alot of them.
With that much chance, anything can work once.
"The Sun even shines on a dogs butt once in a while". | |
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DarkAngel1979
Skirmisher
3 Posts
| | 11/27/2006 12:59 PM |
| I don't know about the Stag Zealot. As for Boneclan Hunter:
If you want to play Temples on turn 3 without paying extra spawn, you have to play some low cost Passion pieces. At 3 spawn, you have the Hunter, Redcaps, and Hammerhead. Really, you don't have a lot of choice. Redcaps are a gamble that you won't go against Spellbound Scissors or other Regenerators, and playing them can also be a pain if you're unlucky with dice. Hammerheads are just too fragile. Rainforest Shaman is decent but costs 4.
None of the choices at that spawn number are great. I expect that if a good 2 or 3 spawn figure shows up in Chrysotic Plague that nobody will play the Hunter. They might even drop the Redcap. | | | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/29/2006 4:03 PM |
| | I agreed with froffenhoffer on putting the Hawk-eyed Instigator back in core (moving it to extended was an overreaction on my part to the success of the Kitsune/Brighthammer combo at the 10K) and adding the Raging Vanguard. Unstoppable is really awfully impressive once you start playing around with it, especially considering how well the Kitsune has played. Unless there's objection, I'll probably just drop the Loyal Scragglemaw in my next edit, who is also 9-spawn, since the Vanguard seems better even in a non-Bloodcut band. | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 12/01/2006 2:13 AM |
| I like the Scragglemaw, stylistically. While I've yet to play a Vanguard, I've played against them alot lately. There is no comparisson to the Scragglemaw, the Vanguard is 10 times better. Unstoppable works similar to the Dominate ability in that it is very hard to prepare against it. If the mini is in play it will screw you.
So yeah, I'd drop Scragglemaw.
I like the Hammerhead in core. The ability is very powerful, especially early in. He is squishy but no more than Boneclan.
Hammerhead is devastating with the Genteel Husk/Fear weenie play in an early game. He is also an ideal unit to setup for advanced location placement, in effect you are not "sacrificing" a unit sending it so far up early on. If it is not ideal to spawn him early, he is a relatively easy add-on later game. I can't see him as a wasted slot.
I say he is superior to the other sub-6 (passion) pieces at the moment.
Citadel of Torture may deserve another look. Sacking a figure for it's spawn value is a brilliant way to turn your Baxar occupied cell into a killing field. It also allows for a beneficial retirement for figures that are very useful early but merely chaff late game or figures that are facing an unfortunate opposing matchup. While still not as strong as a HBT it provides a secondary benefit that makes it a better choice in bands that do not require either a) a massive spawn advantage or b) win by stalling 2 turns while setting up the late game combo. It is useful for bands that move aggresively early on and rely on an early board control advantage. Just sacking a Parriah may be the difference between getting the Fatty out or not in some games.
So I'm calling for an extended slot. (someone will use this to good effect I think soon)
Of course I may be nuts. | |
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Thespian
Sergeant
442 Posts
Lethbridge, Alberta
| | 12/18/2006 8:48 PM |
| I am here to come to the Lockjaw's rescue.
Call me crazy, but this girl is a keeper. I play it with a core of 2 Ouroburus, 2 buzzclaws, a Lockjaw and a Darkheart. I set myself up early with darkheart in a spawn cell and then spawn the buzzclaws there. It is AMAZING. Then you can fade them to get them back and keep striking. The Lockjaw works in much the same way. After she spawns, I fade her as quick as I can so that I can bring her back in when I want.Â
My Brother plays her with Baxar and an Equitar and a Citadel of torture. He corpsebuilds her and then gets baxar in the cell with the citadel and basically locksdown a cell every round that he spawns 8 spawn for free. He calls her, and the scarifices her again. It is wicked devesating.
Anyway I think she belongs in the extended toolkit. I think she belongs there just because you can spawn her at any time with any type of band and generally steal a turn. You may not see her often now, but you will in the future. It is too nasty of an ability.
Just my opinion. Back me up if you agree!! | |
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Boyet
Sneak
63 Posts
Neutral Grounds philippines
| | 12/18/2006 9:12 PM |
| | i have to commend faragdar for this toolkit. very usefull for me as a new dreamblade player. but experience on gameplay still counts a lot. my advice is play a lot. you will see a lot of the tactics as you gain experience and this toolkit will help you get started on your warband construction. thanks again to "faragdar the wise" for the toolkit. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/19/2006 7:38 AM |
| Posted By Thespian on 12/18/2006 8:48 PM
I am here to come to the Lockjaw's rescue.
My Brother plays her with Baxar and an Equitar and a Citadel of torture.Â
Now, that is an interesting strategy, indeed. Throw a Heartsblood Temple into the mix and you're almost guaranteed to be able to play the lockdown trick every turn where there's a spawn phase. And with Corpsebuilt, you never have to worry about paying the Lockjaw's aspect cost. Why the Equitar instead of a Butcher? The Butcher is also a good piece with Baxar and, being cheaper, I would think gets your combo set up a turn earlier in the game. What's his strategy for keeping Baxar alive, since the strategy hinges on Baxar?
I'm not sure that, alone, makes the Lockjaw worth including in the toolkit. Maybe, but only if it turns out to be extremely competitive, which I doubt--seems too easy to knock out the linchpin and cripple the band. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
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Thespian
Sergeant
442 Posts
Lethbridge, Alberta
| | 12/20/2006 11:57 AM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 12/19/2006 7:38 AM Posted By Thespian on 12/18/2006 8:48 PM
I am here to come to the Lockjaw's rescue.
My Brother plays her with Baxar and an Equitar and a Citadel of torture.Â
Now, that is an interesting strategy, indeed. Throw a Heartsblood Temple into the mix and you're almost guaranteed to be able to play the lockdown trick every turn where there's a spawn phase. And with Corpsebuilt, you never have to worry about paying the Lockjaw's aspect cost. Why the Equitar instead of a Butcher? The Butcher is also a good piece with Baxar and, being cheaper, I would think gets your combo set up a turn earlier in the game. What's his strategy for keeping Baxar alive, since the strategy hinges on Baxar? I'm not sure that, alone, makes the Lockjaw worth including in the toolkit. Maybe, but only if it turns out to be extremely competitive, which I doubt--seems too easy to knock out the linchpin and cripple the band.
He plays the equitar because it has corpsebuild 2 instead of one. That way he removes both the buzzclaw and the lockjaw. I have never found that the inclusion of a buzzclaw was as handy as the lockjaw (which I have come to fear). BTW - he plays with both the butcher AND the equitar - It give him options. If he gets enough spawn, he get the equitar out there first - that Equitar is a NIGHTMARE.   Â
The only reason he doesn't whup me every time we play is that he has a huge problem keeping baxar alive. He even started incorperating bodyguards (to corpsebuild) in order to help baxar live. Another possible solution is to play with two baxars, which is not something we had tested - we only have the one baxar between the two of us. So in the end, I agree with you - kill baxar and he is done.
Now, I am not so cocky as to think that we are the only ones who saw the value of the Lockjaw, which is why I am hoping others also share their strories as to why and how they use him. I am not saying that just because we have found him useful in some niche-band, that he needs to be in the extended toolkit. I have heard of others who use him, so I am wondering if there are enough of us to warrant an inclusion in the extended....
I obviously think he belongs there and that she will start show up more as people learn how to use her. It is jsut a matter of time in my opinion.
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 12/20/2006 3:35 PM |
| I have used Lockjaw to good effect in a Madness band featuring the Screambent Lunatic.  If you get a Wail off and roll 7 or 8, you gut an opposing Kitsune/Brighthammer band; if it's the 8, you recycle your Lockjaw as well, even better!
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/20/2006 10:58 PM |
| | One of the bands that made top 8 at the 10K at Gen Con SoCal had a Lockjaw. It surprised me and had me thinking about whether I had misjudged--the point of it was that he was running an aggro band. He expected to bring the Lockjaw out just when his opponent was starting to spawn enough stuff to get the upper hand. Lockdown a big piece or two in a critical turn in the late game and he could secure that fast win. The thing is, he said afterward that it wasn't useful in very many of his matches, and if he had things to do over, he would have dropped it from his build. With that damning statement, and with the prominence of Kitsunes, Pearlthorn Castles and Chaos Puppeteers (Kitsune/Brighthammer laughs at lockdown, and the other spawn phase movement abilities will kill you unless you lose the initiative), and pieces with blade-based movement abilities, I decided to leave it off. | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 12/21/2006 9:25 AM |
| I'd make the following changes:
Valor:
Drop pearlthorn gargoyle to extended, while his ability keeps him around for a long time, the slot and spawn points are generally better served bringing in a creature that does more for you.
Move virtuous maiden, angel of sunrise and noble dragon into core, they are all that good, I've either maimed or been maimed in several matches by each of these guys. the noble dragon just needs a blade to disrupt the ragedrake, the angel of sunrise can lock you into a win, or massacre your opponent's board position if you're running brighthammers. the virtuous maiden makes little stuff very big, particularly when you've got several of them backing up a cell.
drop the axebeast altogether, the likelihood of spawning him is too low.
Passion:
I'd drop the hammerhead into extended, move the redcap and rainforest shaman into core, and add the aluring succubus to core, she's still very good. I'd drop the shard troll.
Fear:
Butcher and poltergeist should both be core. The butcher is core if you've got baxar, and the poltergeist is the only bladed scare piece throwing more than 1 dice. Silhouette is going to be core. he holds down the middle against brighthammers, forcing those bands to deal with it in the action phases, which really strengthens board position
Madness:
Bump the gent into core, the potential to drop 2 spawn points on most blade abilities is great, particularly whisper gambit. drop the otolook, for 6, he's weak, particularly when considering madness's life. and stray warpstrike makes a weak ability (warpstrike) even weaker by allowing your opponent to either choose something beefy which you have very little chance at dislodging, or something small that he's not incredibly concerned about keeping on the board. | |
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 12/21/2006 10:16 AM |
| Eldricht soul: Valor, right mostly xcept for the angel should be in extended, Passion, redcap, rainforest, and hammerhead are good where they are, and ice troll i never played with.
Fear I agreeish.
Masness there was alot of discussion about ooktolok its not going to be changed for just one persons opinion. | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 12/21/2006 11:27 AM |
| from what I've seen from looking at the thread, otolook getting on the
list was just one person's opinion, and that was anough to change it,
if this is supposed to be a resource for newer gamers, they should have
good information, telling them to play most of these madness and
passion figures is poor information. they may be the best for their
aspect at that spawn slot, but I'd probably dump most of the extended
lists completely and downgrade other "core" pieces from those aspects
to extended.
passion probably should look like this:
Core:
Heartsblood temple
Infernal Gothic
Unsated ragedrake
Extended:
Bloodthirsty redcap
Hammerhead
Rainforest Shaman
Buzzclaw
Aluring Succubus
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/21/2006 12:29 PM |
| | EldritchSoul, that's definitely food for thought. I was concerned that I was adding too many figures to each list. Perhaps I have, but I don't want to be too hasty making changes. I'll think about it, caucus with some local gamers and see if anyone else pipes in here. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 01/30/2007 3:56 PM |
| | I will work on updates to the toolkits now that Chrysotic Plague is out. Just give me time to digest the new stats. It'll probably be this weekend before there's an update, but I welcome any suggestions from the folks playing around with the pieces out there. My goal is to minimize increasing the length of any toolkit list, so I'll be looking at whether I should axe a mini every time I add a new one. Therefore, if you really like a new piece, let me know if you think it makes any old ones obsolete. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 01/31/2007 3:10 AM |
| My current guess for CP is;
Core:-
Fear; Toxic Sludger
Madness; Arsonist, Octorilla,Skittering Smeech;Tatooed Squashbug
Passion; Aviax Firebrand,Succulent Creeper
Valor; Tower of Unquenched Flame
Extended:-
Fear; Baba Yaga's Hut, Backalley Skuntch, Lord Slobber, Queen Chrysota
Madness; Gutsoupe Golem,Probability Walker,Slaughterwheel,Swordstrider
Passion; Borg Penitent, Hazardin Grenadier, Hiveling Overlord, Warfang Keep, Whispering Imp
Valor; Mujina, Pearlthorn Dragon Knight, Thrice-Crowned Androgyne, Valkyrie Moonrider
Valor:
Drop: Â Steelborn Lion Valkyrie Moonrider is a better "reinforce Valor" unit.
Noble Dragon
Ill use the Pearlthorn Dragon Knight. It's easier to spawn & has Rally-2.
Passion:
Move to extended;
Hammerhead;Â Succelent Creeper will be the Passion 3-drop of choice. Â Infernal Gothic; Succulent creeper while inferior, is so much easier to spawn.
Drop: Â Bloodthirsty Redcap; replaced by Succulent Creaper.
Shard Troll: Does anyone actually play this ?
Heart Thief; Tower of Unquenched Flame replaces this  Slaughter Boots: Three new anti-location creatures, any one of which is better than this.
Forgeblind Punisher: Passion now has some distinctly non "glass cannons" to replace this.
Axemorph Demon (R, BS): Another unit that's been power-creeped.
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Fear:
 Drop to Extended:  Dreadmorph Ogre; I see Crypt Worm played more often than this in the fear-11 spot.
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Madness:Â Drop:
Relentless Eviscerator (U, BS): Re-spawn is better than regenerate. Since you do get bonus spawn points when the Gutsoupe Golem is destroyed.
Gent (U, BW): Never see this used in tournaments.
Nevret Warmaster: Arsonist or Swordstrider will fill the 6M drop. If your attack has enough power to use fortune-5. The Swordstrider is probably a better option.
Ooktolok: Octorilla & Gutsoupe Golem are more cost-effective warpstrikers. Decapitrix: Octorilla & Gutsoupe Golem are more cost-effective warpstrikers. Â
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 2:30 AM |
| As fast as these sets come out, this toolkit will become a definate chore to maintain.
I tend to agree with Xaos's observations;
I would amend it slightly however:
Lord Slobber may be a core piece, though it will be in addition to the Cannibal.
Hazardin Grenadier is deffinately a core piece.
Probability Walker's blade ability is incredibly powerful, he goes to core. He is so effective I can see adding him in Non Madness bands.
I have to respectfully disagree on the subject of dropping the Dreadmorph Ogre to extended. He is more effective than the Crypt Worm in general utility. While I do see the worm locally it is often fielded by players that do not have access to the Ogre.
I think the Gent may see more play time in the future. He was a bad 'splash' figure, with a more viable line up for Madness in general he may creep in and Edgemaker is still a potent spawn phase effect. He will never be better than extended however with the introduction of the Probobility Walker. | |
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zxqueb
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 3:18 AM |
| You can drop Kitsune now with the banning.
I would have said leave the SB lions in since they are a key part of bloodcut armies, but it's hard to say what bloodcut will do without their main movement engine.
Xaos: Borg penitent? Really? What use do you see this serving?
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 02/01/2007 8:14 AM |
| Posted By zxqueb on 02/01/2007 3:18 AM
You can drop Kitsune now with the banning.
I would have said leave the SB lions in since they are a key part of bloodcut armies, but it's hard to say what bloodcut will do without their main movement engine.
Xaos: Borg penitent? Really? What use do you see this serving?
You beat me to the mention of Kitsune
Transfer Brighthammer to Extended.
Borg Penitant; How often late in the game have you set up positions where your opponents only chance to stop you winning the turn. Is to double shift. With the Borg Penitant you can guarentee winning those turns. Sure the Borgs going to die, but thats a good trade for a certain win.
It's also easy to set up a position where your opponent can attack only 1 unit (the borg) when they strike. So the rest of your force is virtually invulnerable that turn.
Even more valuable in warbands with Baxar, where for a total of spawn-5 you get to reuse the ability whenever the position will let it work.
With Kit-Hammer banned, The Borg might move into core instead of extended. Since the odds of it being destroyed in the spawn phase go way down.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 02/08/2007 1:45 PM |
| | I agree with most of your "drop" suggestions. I'll keep the Gent and Dreadmorph Ogre where they are, though. I'm still thinking about the add recommendations. I'm not yet convinced on Lord Slobber, Backalley Skuntch, Queen Chrysota, Mujina or Thrice-Crowned Androgyne. I tend to agree that the Hazardin Grenadier belongs in core, while the Arsonist looks extended, to me. Do you think Baba Yaga's Hut renders the Genteel Husk obsolete? I realize the abilities aren't the same, but the effect is similar. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/09/2007 6:40 AM |
| My suggestions based on the CP changes:
Core
Fear: Infernal Preacher
Madness: Arsonist, Octorilla, Probability Walker, Tatooed Squashbug
Passion: Aviax Firebrand,Succulent Creeper
Valor: Seraph, Tower of Unquenched Flame
Extended
Fear: Baba Yaga's Hut, Queen Chryosta, Ropestrung Scarecrow, Toxic Sludger
Madness: Gutsoup Golem, Slaughterwheel, Swordstrider
Passion: Caged Grawlth, Hazadrian Grenadier, Whispering Imp, World Eater
Valor: Pearlthorn Dragon Knight, Thrice-Crowned Androgyne, Valkyrie Moonrider
Changes to Existing Toolkits (Based both on changes in CP as well as my general biases):
Fear:
Zombie Enforcer move to Extended (Weak compared to 3 drops in other factions. Generally more worthwhile just to play them.)
Eater of Hope moves to Core (Excellent stats for its cost and one of the most survivable big hitters in the game.)
Crypt Worm moves to Core (Excellent base stats, and Haunt Gambit is a game winner.)
Madness:
Relentless Eviscerator removed (Not a tournament viable piece.)
Nevret Warmaster removed (Not a tournament viable piece. Swordstrider does what he does only better.)
Iron Thug removed (When are you ever going to play him over the Slaughterwheel?)
Passion:
Bloodthirsty Redcap moves to Core (The default passion fodder. Despite the drawback, 4 power for 3 cost is great.)
Bloodhawk Barag moved to Core (Great stats and a sepcial ability that is even better with the creation of reasonable anti-location pieces.)
Boneblade Serpent removed (Sure he has a nice ability, but his stats do not make up for it. If you want to include a Ferocity piece, include the Bloodsucker)
Buzzclaw move to Extended (Very expensive for his base stats, and only occassionally useful. Still very useful in certain bands though, so worthy of Extended status.)
Hammerhead moved to Extended (only worthwhile in very specific bands)
Shard Troll removed (Who plays this guy, really?)
Heart Thief removed (superfolous with the creation of the Temple of Unquenched Flame)
Slaughter Boots removed (Not good enough for competitive tournament play.)
Tlamexic Battlelord removed (Was OKAY before, but with the Virtuous Maiden has become pretty unneccessary.)
Axemorph Demon removed (There are tons of other Passion pieces that are just so much better at this price point. Why bother?)
Valor
Brighthammer Avenger moves to Extended (see Twilight Scout)
Pearlthorn Gargoyle moves to Extended (Nothing has proven him to be a competitive mini yet.)
Twilight Scout moves to Extended (Bloodcut no longer a viable competitive army)
Virtuous Maiden moves to Core (An excellent 4 drop that is useful in most armies, amazing in a few)
Noble Dragon moves to Core (Sure, the Pearlthorn Dragon Knight is good, but this guy definitely has a role, particularly with the addition of new, compeitive Passion beaters.)
Inscribed Axebeast Removed (Who plays this in a competitive warband?) | |
I am not gone. | |
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Scud-O
Sneak
117 Posts
| | 02/09/2007 9:44 AM |
| Tower of Unquenched Flame hardly makes Heart Thief superfluous. In fact, with the Kitsune ban, Heart Thief is BETTER than the Tower. - it can move, contest cells, strike, and never helps your opponent.
Dreadmorph stays core. It is a beatstick AND an enabler. It will still be a key piece in the new PotR variants we will see in the CP Constructed environment.
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/09/2007 12:37 PM |
| | The Heart Thief is weak and expensive for what she does. The Tower of Unquenched Flame costs 2 spawn and is only destroyable in very specific circumstances. I've very rarely used the Heart Thief in the past, and with the existance of the Tower, I am unlikely to ever use it again. | |
I am not gone. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7675 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 02/09/2007 1:23 PM |
| Posted By doubtofbuddha on 02/09/2007 12:37 PM
The Heart Thief is weak and expensive for what she does. The Tower of Unquenched Flame costs 2 spawn and is only destroyable in very specific circumstances. I've very rarely used the Heart Thief in the past, and with the existance of the Tower, I am unlikely to ever use it again.
I agree with all of this. Heart Thief has fallen out of the toolkit. The tower is much more reliable, as well as higher survivability.
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 02/09/2007 6:46 PM |
| Posted By doubtofbuddha on 02/09/2007 6:40 AM
Iron Thug removed (When are you ever going to play him over the Slaughterwheel?) For the same cost, the Thug has 1 higher in power, defense and life. The Slaughterwheel has an interesting and (probably) positive blade ability. If I'd rather have extra brute force and I believe I can have a blade dump available when I need it, I'll take the Iron Thug. I may drop the Thug, but I have to play around with the Slaughterwheel a bit first.
Passion:
Bloodthirsty Redcap moves to Core (The default passion fodder. Despite the drawback, 4 power for 3 cost is great.)
Bloodhawk Barag moved to Core (Great stats and a sepcial ability that is even better with the creation of reasonable anti-location pieces.)
Boneblade Serpent removed (Sure he has a nice ability, but his stats do not make up for it. If you want to include a Ferocity piece, include the Bloodsucker)
Buzzclaw move to Extended (Very expensive for his base stats, and only occassionally useful. Still very useful in certain bands though, so worthy of Extended status.)
Interesting that you say the Redcap is core, but Xaos says drop. I love the piece, but I recognize that it's always risky to play. The Succulent Creeper, however, looks all-around useful in the same spawn slot. I also like the Bloodhawk, but I don't agree that its stats are great (reasonable, but not great). I don't think, though, that the new anti-location pieces are enough to bump this guy in importance past the Heartsblood Temple. Boneblade, I think you're right. I want to love ferocity, but it's just too darn expensive--kind of reduces the appeal of the Redcap, too. You're probably right on the Buzzclaw, too. The fact that it's only useful in a couple types of bands makes it more of an extended than core tool.
Valor
Pearlthorn Gargoyle moves to Extended (Nothing has proven him to be a competitive mini yet.)
Twilight Scout moves to Extended (Bloodcut no longer a viable competitive army)
Virtuous Maiden moves to Core (An excellent 4 drop that is useful in most armies, amazing in a few)
Noble Dragon moves to Core (Sure, the Pearlthorn Dragon Knight is good, but this guy definitely has a role, particularly with the addition of new, compeitive Passion beaters.)
Inscribed Axebeast Removed (Who plays this in a competitive warband?) With the Kitsune gone, I think the Gargoyle is going to see more play. I think he's good enough for core, but I might be wrong if folks think that he's sufficiently neutered by pieces that can move him around (and out of scoring cells). Virtuous Maiden core? Is that born out? I agree she's good. I didn't realize she was that good. Axebeast, sure, I'll drop. Most players are way too timid to use a piece with such a drawback in competitive play (I personally think he's worth it, and I like to use him, but I admit I haven't used him in competitive play). Noble Dragon core? I might keep him extended, but I'm not sure about core.
Edit: mixed up Twilight and Clawclan Scouts in my head. Yeah, I need to think hard about the Twilight Scout again. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 02/10/2007 6:08 AM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 02/08/2007 1:45 PM
 Do you think Baba Yaga's Hut renders the Genteel Husk obsolete? I realize the abilities aren't the same, but the effect is similar. I agree Genteel Husk is obsolete.
But not sure that the 'Huts the primary cause.
My play testing with the hut shows it's movement abilty is the stronger of it's abilities. You shift it sideways to allow spawning in columns where you don't have a creature.
It's control ability seems almost worthless since the cell you want to control often has a location in it already. Current metagame. (if that phrase has any meaning with Kitsune rescently banned ?) has the center row solidly occupied by locations. And once that happens the Hut can't advance to a scoreing cell.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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