XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
    
London
 | | 02/01/2007 7:39 AM |
| Link to details
Effective Date: February 20, 2007 Kitsune is banned from constructed tournaments. Details:
We do not ban figures lightly, but when we feel that it improves the
quality of the play experience, both for new players and for veterans
then we will. The long and complex spawn phases that result from the Kitsune + Brighthammer Avenger
warband has several negative effects on the tournament environment.
Removing Kitsune reduces the pressure on the time limits and makes the
games move along faster. In addition the power level of the Kitsune +
Brighthammer warband is very strong. We don't mind having a
Brighthammer warband around and removing just the Kitsune allows
players to continue playing the warband at a more balanced level. Please also note in the announcement that the Dreamblade Floor Rules have been updated to reflect this change. The new floor rule update will be posted on Thursday, February. 1st.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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zxqueb
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 8:35 AM |
| Posted By XAos on 02/01/2007 7:39 AM My question would be why they banned this, just as the (possibly) more powerfull Aviax Firebrand came out...
My thoughts exactly. I imagine we'll have the firebrand in play until the next set to see how powerful it is in a constructed tournament environment. My guess is that it'll be next on that ban list. Until then, at least we can voodoo it out of scoring cells 50% of the time. | | | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 02/01/2007 8:39 AM |
| | Alas I only really got to use her in a tournament once. Our local Dreamblade community is pretty small so this never really became an issue for us. | | | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 8:49 AM |
| | My opinion is it is a major over-reaction. Rather than banning the piece it would have been a better choice to essentially make the piece a unique. Only one can be included in your team. Still allowing the piece to be used but not have the multiple kitsunes moving pieces all over. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 9:34 AM |
| | Comparing the kitsune's spawn phase attraction with the firebrand's warcry doesn't make much sense to me. The kitsune costs 7 spawn and can use her ability from anywhere on the board, while the firebrand costs 9 and needs to be in a scoring cell. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 02/01/2007 9:48 AM |
| Posted By forkedmoon on 02/01/2007 8:49 AM
My opinion is it is a major over-reaction. Rather than banning the piece it would have been a better choice to essentially make the piece a unique. I remember hearing, when Dreamblade first came out, that WotC had made the decision that they would not issue any errata for individual pieces in Dreamblade. What you're suggesting amounts to errata, which isn't going to happen in this game. Therefore, the only choice left to the designers, once they realized how significantly the Kitsune had affected the game, was to ban the piece.
Well, this obviously changes the face of the Valor toolkit. I'd say it was probably a good decision. When 4 out of the top 8 bands at a 10K are dominated by a single piece (not just that they include the piece, but that their entire strategy revolves around the use of that piece), you have to take a really hard look at how that piece fits into the game. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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evilmerlin
Skirmisher
42 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 10:46 AM |
| When 12 out 12 players at the previous Dragonmeet 1K played Kitsune bands, you know that something is seriously wrong with the piece.
I also don't get how people are comparing the Firebrand to the Kitsune?! The Firebrand costs 9 and it requires it to be in a scoring cell and it still costs a further 3 spawn points to do it.
The Kitsune costs 7, does its tricks anywhere on the board FOR FREE! Throw in the PTCs and those silly Brighthammers run around the board FOR FREE!
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 12:31 PM |
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I remember hearing, when Dreamblade first came out, that WotC had made the decision that they would not issue any errata for individual pieces in Dreamblade. What you're suggesting amounts to errata, which isn't going to happen in this game. Therefore, the only choice left to the designers, once they realized how significantly the Kitsune had affected the game, was to ban the piece.
And banning a piece is different from errata how? It still changes the play options for a single piece.
When 12 out 12 players at the previous Dragonmeet 1K played Kitsune bands, you know that something is seriously wrong with the piece.
And yet we can still play with warcharms that at one time were the dominant piece. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3525 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 02/01/2007 1:00 PM |
| Posted By forkedmoon on 02/01/2007 12:31 PM
And banning a piece is different from errata how? It still changes the play options for a single piece. If errata is issued, then players and judges have to carry around an additional rules document that may overrule what's printed on individual minis' bases. It's one thing to issue clarifications. It's another to actually change the rules for a piece. Banning is a simple matter of adding the mini's name to the banned list in the tournament rules.
And yet we can still play with warcharms that at one time were the dominant piece. The Warcharm is a powerful and popular piece, and, like the Heartsblood Temple, it gets added to a lot of warbands. I don't think it was ever as dominant as Kitsune/Brighthammer, though. Who knows, though, maybe it too was considered for banning, at one time. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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zxqueb
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 1:07 PM |
| re: firebrand
It's does a several things really well. First, it acts as a limited spawn phase lure, pulling enemies into a position where they can be shift/struck. Second, it can be used as a limited advance to pull your guys forward. Third, it can be used to retreat from a position which the opponent wants to shift-strike into.Â
Fourth, and most seriously problematic, it combos extraordinarily well with double reapers. On the turn the combo goes off, it is extremetly possible to kill the vast majority of your opponent's pieces and lock him or her out of the game -- the reapers also act as a defense against your opponent shifting into the cell and disrupting your warcry from activating on successive turns.   It's not a hard combo to get off (3 pieces) and it pretty much is a game ender regardless of what else is on the board.
Is it as powerful as or more powerful than kit... I don't know-- we'll all have to play around and come up with strategies to beat it and decide for sure in a couple months.Â
Re: warcharms
Warcharms are nice because they have multiple abilities on the cheap. BUT they have to roll blades and are fairly easily dealt with. They are a utility piece, not a warband engine.Â
Kit, on the other hand, could use her ability on pretty much every piece in the warband every turn (especially now with the new valor location) regardless of board positioning or combat status. Not only that, she is a super solid piece -- great on both attack and defense.  3x kit runs circles around bands without 3x kit unless the opponent has huge fatties all the way through the curve. Kit / hammer takes out 75% of the possible army types simply because they aren't fast enough or big enough to compete with it.Â
Z | | | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7675 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 02/01/2007 3:21 PM |
| You have to consider that more than the "Brokenness" of the piece is taken into account. It was also slowing down gameplay quite a bit. It reminds me a lot of the drider banning. Powerful, but mostly banned due to slowing down gameplay to an unreasonable level. None of the othe powerful pieces do that.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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barrj77
Skirmisher
5 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 4:44 PM |
| | Kitsune needed to be banned. It slowed games down by drawing out the spawn phase and in tourneys, Kit vs. Kit games usually ended before someone reached 6. It was just too powerful to add that much free spawn phase movement. Basically they are mobile castles that rolled 4 dice a piece. Then the Brighthammers come out and devastate during spawn with no deathblows to worry about. The Kitsunes are rediculously good pieces that took alot of fun out of the game. Now, many different warbands will be viable options for tourneys, instead of just Kitsune and Temple Good Stuff or PoTR. Really, who wants to see Kitsune after Kitsune after Kitsune at a tourney anyway. I know that I had my fill of them (even though I was guilty of running one at two 1ks). | | | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 02/01/2007 6:43 PM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 02/01/2007 1:00 PM Posted By forkedmoon on 02/01/2007 12:31 PM
And banning a piece is different from errata how? It still changes the play options for a single piece. If errata is issued, then players and judges have to carry around an additional rules document that may overrule what's printed on individual minis' bases. It's one thing to issue clarifications. It's another to actually change the rules for a piece. Banning is a simple matter of adding the mini's name to the banned list in the tournament rules.
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Champion of Cyclops
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Thespian
Sergeant
442 Posts
Lethbridge, Alberta
| | 02/01/2007 9:25 PM |
| | I feel that this banning is the right move. I just feel bad for all the people who have dished out near $40+ a pop for additional BHA to round out their tournament band. | |
A wand of silence means never having to say you're sorry.
CHAMPION OF THE ANNIS HAG!!! | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 02/02/2007 2:30 AM |
| Posted By barrj77 on 02/01/2007 4:44 PM
Kitsune needed to be banned. It slowed games down by drawing out the spawn phase and in tourneys, Kit vs. Kit games usually ended before someone reached 6. It was just too powerful to add that much free spawn phase movement. Basically they are mobile castles that rolled 4 dice a piece. Then the Brighthammers come out and devastate during spawn with no deathblows to worry about. The Kitsunes are rediculously good pieces that took alot of fun out of the game. Now, many different warbands will be viable options for tourneys, instead of just Kitsune and Temple Good Stuff or PoTR. Really, who wants to see Kitsune after Kitsune after Kitsune at a tourney anyway. I know that I had my fill of them (even though I was guilty of running one at two 1ks).
I agree with your opinion of Kitsune. I just suspect that banning it with the Firebrand just released will be replacing "Kit-Hammer" with "War-Hammer". | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 7:09 AM |
| I still disagree with the ban. Unlike DDM there is no secondary use for these figs. So when I buy a booster of Baxar's if I pull a Kitsune I have just received a piece I can not use. Maybe WotC should consider an exchange program. Turn in your useless Kitsunes for other random uncommons that can possibly be played.
Sure there are lots of figs I could pull that never get played but at least I have the option of playing them. For players with limited funds pulling an unusable fig just isn't fair. With DDM's banned Drider Sorcerer it could easily be traded. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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jedijon
Sergeant
474 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 7:48 AM |
| Bah, I hate bans.
Oh well! I seriously don't think that trading in an uncommon would be a smart strategy in any sense of the word. I just bought three at a dollar a piece--I really don't want to get my three bucks back   That's a leetle silly. Anyhoo, it's nice to know that I don't have to shell out for Brighthammers!
Bans are bad because, 1) powercreep is unavoidable--the banned piece will suck in a year anyway--2) set rotation is a much more proven method of managing a metagame over a long period of time.
I wonder how we'll feel on the day that's it's announced that the entire Baxars Wars set is retired. Maybe we can trade them in? | |
*WoTC Delegate (Chicago)* :=: My Trade Thread :=:
DISPUTED TRADE WITH TREE DRUID!!!!!!!! | |
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Android
Skirmisher
20 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 7:53 AM |
| Another option is to "patch" the Kitsune. How to change it's abilities? Good question, but I'd leave that to Wizards to figure out. Change it's ability (cost/scoring cell) and then make up a new sticker. Place it up on the website for people to print out and paste on their figs. If they wanted to be really nice, have a mail option to have official stickers sent out to people (and stores!) so we could then just apply the sticker to the base and be done with it. So the silk screening on the top wouldn't be perfect, but it is a patch...
I'm glad the figure was banned (in it's current state) but it is unfortunate that they had to remove a figure from the mix to fix the problem. | |
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Heartless_
Skirmisher
9 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 8:00 AM |
| 1. In response to the Firebrand comparison. The Firebrand is expensive to play. It requires a scoring cell. Most of all the combo everyone is salivating over requires a ton of setup, a ton of spawn, and almost requires your opponent to unwittingly set themselves up for it. One missed spawn phase, a series of low initiative rolls, a blocked Temple, or an opponent playing around your pieces will equal a loss. Kitsune on the other hand always works, is cost effective, and worst of all can do it's dirty work for free. Kitsune always appears 3 times in a Kitsune warband. A Firebrand will appear one time with the off chance someone gets brave and plays two which IMHO kills the spawn curve. The Aviax Reaper may be powerful when it hits, but there are tons of circumstances where it will be sidelined. Most importantly there are a ton of bands that can just beat the combo to 6 victory points which was nigh impossible against Kitsune who had upwards of 5 shifts per spawn phase.
2. Ban vs errata. Simply answered. A judge can walk up to a table and see whether Kitsune is being played when it is banned. A judge can not walk up to a table and tell whether or not Kitsune's errata'd rules are or were being followed. If Kitsune was errata'd to Unique there is no way a judge can walk up to a table and see if Kitsune was played as a Unique. One Kitsune could be in play and another in the graveyard... there is no way to verify they were played correctly. Banning the piece is the best and most solid solution to the problem. It is not a question about "getting the word out"... it is a question of what simplifies the situation the most (ie banning).
3. Kitsune is still legal in sealed play with Baxar's War. Not completely a wasted mini. Offering a trade-in program would be a nightmare that would hurt more than help as the glut of trade-ins would take away from the development and production of the game.
4. All this complaining about losing a single piece, but no one mentions how many RARES, UNCOMMONS, and COMMONS have been sidelined by an obviously overpowered UNCOMMON! Everyone should have been complaining to high hell and back about how much money they were wasting every time a non-Ragedrake popped out of their BW booster! The Scarab Warcharm and Heartsblood Temple enable TONS of otherwise unplayable minis to see play whereas Kitsune replaced a single mini and in the process made TONS worthless.
5. zxqueb all those neat little examples don't apply when the Firebrand is out of a scoring cell, when you don't have the spawn to activate, and most importantly your examples are pretty expensive for a rather weak effect. Kitsune worked from anywhere, for free, and netted a pretty damaging effect.
6. Finally the Brighthammer Beats band was a top band before Kitsune. There are and still is pieces that fit into the band just fine with or without Kitsune. Kitsune pushed the ban over the edge. So anyone thinking that the Brighthammer is going away anytime soon you are more than welcome to give me those "useless" Brighthammer Avengers
EDIT: Speed of play is just a cop out. Kitsune was damaging to the game well beyond speed of play. It probably factored into the decision, but by no means was the speed of play the determining factor. Over time the speed of play will increase for any given combo. Kitsune was a noose around Dreamblade's neck and it really limited where the game could go. Every set would require anti-Kitsune pieces and if the expansion set didn't include any it looks bad on the developers. And god help us if a piece were to be released that completely and utterly pushed Kitsune over the edge... which may have been the case with Arsonist and ToUF.
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[My gaming blog!]
Currently playing : World of Warcraft | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 02/02/2007 8:03 AM |
| Posted By Android on 02/02/2007 7:53 AM
Another option is to "patch" the Kitsune. How to change it's abilities? Good question, but I'd leave that to Wizards to figure out. Change it's ability (cost/scoring cell) and then make up a new sticker. Place it up on the website for people to print out and paste on their figs. If they wanted to be really nice, have a mail option to have official stickers sent out to people (and stores!) so we could then just apply the sticker to the base and be done with it. So the silk screening on the top wouldn't be perfect, but it is a patch...
I'm glad the figure was banned (in it's current state) but it is unfortunate that they had to remove a figure from the mix to fix the problem.
Problem with that would be checking legal warbands at the start of a tournament.
Having to pick up every kitsune & check the sticker was the latest version would take a lot of time.
Not a problem so long as it's only kitsune. But in a couple of years there could be 10+ erraterd units. And that would be a problem.
10+ Banned units are easy to deal with at the start of a tournament.
Also the opinion on WotC main forum is that the big problem with Kitsune was speed of play. Making the ability spawn-1 or 2 to use wouldn't improve that. Might even make it slower.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12477 Posts
The G Spot
| | 02/02/2007 9:16 AM |
| | For all of you who are puzzled by this decision, get used to it. Dreamblade is the minis equivalent of M:tG and we all know how many cards are banned and restricted in that game. There will be more bannings and possibly some restrictions as time goes by. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
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kylaxi
Skirmisher
5 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 10:03 AM |
| I can't believe they banned it:
temple goodstuff was already beating kitsune and restricting it would have done the job too.
But now madness can rule the tournament games.
I don't believe the avian firebrand will work. | | | |
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zxqueb
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 02/02/2007 12:48 PM |
| Posted By Heartless_ on 02/02/2007 8:00 AM
5. zxqueb all those neat little examples don't apply when the Firebrand is out of a scoring cell, when you don't have the spawn to activate, and most importantly your examples are pretty expensive for a rather weak effect. Kitsune worked from anywhere, for free, and netted a pretty damaging effect.
I don't think it's a "rather weak effect." Quite the contrary. And with double temple and/or barag to muscle it out, it's more than possible to get the combo out on turn 5 or 6 and have it hit the following turn.  Assuming turns 1 and 2 are tied turns, that puts an opponent around victory point 3-4 (chances are fairly good you'll go back and forth a bit on those early turns). Â
I may be wrong about the AF.  And I am certainly not calling for a ban right now. It is just the piece I am most concerned about at the moment. I guess time and tournaments will tell.
ZÂ | | | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7675 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 02/02/2007 3:11 PM |
| It's not weak, but it is expensive. The difference between firebrand and Kitsune is 3 spawn per use...
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Akhnaten
Skirmisher
11 Posts
somewhere, with your mum, where you wouldn't like
| | 02/02/2007 4:11 PM |
| | So - does anyone want to buy a Kitsune? | | | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7675 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 02/04/2007 2:41 PM |
| No thanks, I have my three for casual play.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 02/04/2007 7:56 PM |
| Who knows maybe we'll get a Kitsune repaint for playing in Edge Events!  | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Akhnaten
Skirmisher
11 Posts
somewhere, with your mum, where you wouldn't like
| | 02/05/2007 1:18 PM |
| | I'll take that over a Buzzkill Clown repaint - or even a Buzzkill Clown. | | | |
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froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 02/06/2007 8:01 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 02/02/2007 9:16 AM
For all of you who are puzzled by this decision, get used to it. Dreamblade is the minis equivalent of M:tG and we all know how many cards are banned and restricted in that game. There will be more bannings and possibly some restrictions as time goes by.
IM gonna stand up for M:tg here. IN the last 22 sets their have been 2 banned cards, apart from 1 mistake which led to the banning of i think it was 7 cards... the only format where there are lots of restrictions is type 1, which costs like £1000 to play anyway.. and no one bothers because you need all the old cards for it.. | |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 02/08/2007 3:41 AM |
| What the...?
I disappear for a couple of days.
I've been playing with the Aviax lately, it's harder to use than the Kitsune. Much harder. I don't think it will be a case of "replace one evil with another".
I have to agree with the ban on this. Trip Kitsune was slow and likely to be even slower with the Tower of Flame in play.
From a judging standpoint, errata is a no go for me. I'd retire if I had to keep 20 different figure rules variants in my head. While I liked Kit, I didn't like it enough to be willing to face 8+ matches in a single day against it. thank God that the locals revile "net bands".
Ghendar is likely correct, this is likely just the first piece to get a ban.
Who knows, one day Kit may get Un-Banned. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7675 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 02/08/2007 8:23 AM |
| I haven't played a major event with it, but I do keep in contact with a number of the pro-level players, and many of them experienced an apathy for the game with this piece. It slowed the games down. IIRC, there was a 2 1/2 hour Semifinal in seattle, where Sam Black was taking adequate time (with judge supervision) to plan his series of events. Yowza.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 02/10/2007 11:30 PM |
| | Yeah, that'd bore the hell out of me. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 02/12/2007 3:42 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 02/08/2007 8:23 AM
there was a 2 1/2 hour Semifinal in seattle, where Sam Black was taking adequate time (with judge supervision) to plan his series of events. Yowza.
The problem here is that it's actually possible to spend hours analysing the possible consquences of a game turn if you want to (and if the judge will allow it) The limit isn't the complexity of the game turn, with a less complex turn you just plan more moves ahead. e.g. Chess masters typically plan about 15+ moves ahead. And Go masters can plan 50+ moves ahead. Chess & Go avoid indefinate time used for this. By chess clocks and the simple rule that incomplete games are draws.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 02/12/2007 6:22 AM |
| Posted By XAos on 02/12/2007 3:42 AM The problem here is that it's actually possible to spend hours analysing the possible consquences of a game turn if you want to (and if the judge will allow it) The limit isn't the complexity of the game turn, with a less complex turn you just plan more moves ahead. e.g. Chess masters typically plan about 15+ moves ahead. And Go masters can plan 50+ moves ahead. Chess & Go avoid indefinate time used for this. By chess clocks and the simple rule that incomplete games are draws.
Actually, the problem as I understand it had less to do with the planning time spent over spawn phase moves (although that was an issue) and more to do with the simple increase in the number of spawn phase actions, particularly interactive ones.
Picture the typical spawn phase without Kits vs one with triple Kits: how many more individual actions take place during the Kithammer-player's spawn phase? Most such bands features at least two, if not three, Pearlthorn Castles as well as the three Kitsunes. Even the occasional Chaos Puppeteer appeared. That's as many as 7 or 8 spawn phase actions, each one potentially rolling attack dice and causing the resolution of disruption/destruction. This isn't even including the "main" spawn phase action of actually placing a creature ( and God help you if that creature happened to be an Angel of Sunrise...).
Even with the inclusion of the nearly-ubiquitous Aviax Firebrand, I've noticed a distinct lessening in the amount of spawn phase actions since Kitsune has left the constructed scene... | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
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