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AnarionZelle
Underboss
1161 Posts
    
USA
 | | 09/18/2006 12:19 AM |
| | This is dire news for me, indeed, as I only buy singles, and only from online sellers (99% from Auggie's). E-mail sent! | |
Completed Trades: Cha0tic g0od x2,IHawk x6,demagogue x5,jcnorris00,Sammael x3,Diomedes x3,Pan,Phoenix,samstephenson500,sage_raistlin,jai,simage,Lab Monkey x4,bugsy,Vulturedoodle,T-Bone,niolo,GreyOne,Kunimatyu,Mullins,ShivanWurm,berus316,Thenameless x3,Tysac,ksuvampire,Mama Cass,Metz,Zim x2,brucemc,Krush x3,Venport,RedneckDM,nycfarmkid,Corim Danex,Chad the DragonLordofAiur x2,Puggins,Izeya82 x2,Oryan77 x3,Zenako,Wayne,Vocenoctum1,Drakkengi,Username x2,lyus_sleyden,Cyberia,Star x2,xuthal x3,Qucalion of Celene x8,sam500 x2,Blob39,Keoki x2,hazel monday x3,emontedodger,Dargoth,Wraithborne,Anothermullen,Vrecknidj x4,Ghendar,Gunthar,shoesan,beurice,ckissee,kyrin,Khellrendros,GuJiaXian,Wolfgang,True_Blue,md3,stephengroy(MMT08),Teflon Jeff,GuJiaXian(MMT08),aries71,Count Dooku,Kat_Dawg33,oldben,TheChuck,hung4treason,relientKittenI I I I I I I I I I 0 I I I I I I I I I I Pending: Thenameless
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 12:28 AM |
| The "Plight of Brick and Mortar Stores" IS the issue.
Good B&M stores, produce more gamers. That is an indisputable fact. They provide a level of visability that home games in basements can't. It is bad for the Hobby as a whole to have B&M's disappear. By Hobby I mean gaming in general, whether it is D&D, DDM, Warhammer, Risk 2112, Warlord, GURPS, MagicTG etc...etc.... WotC knows that long term growth of the Hobby is still best handled by B&Ms. Crying foul at an attempt to keep 100s or maybe 1000s of people in their professions is not a bad policy in modern Corporate America.
Auggie, it sounds like you are a victim of your own success. If you are BUYING $250,000 dollars worth of product you are no longer "little league". As an attempt at scope, if you were a dedicated B&M with no online presence and had similar sales/purchasing power you would likely be one of the top ten grossing Game Stores in the country (if not THE store). You are selling a Quarter of a Million in sales of a single Product Line. That's pretty impresive, and WotC knows it.
The problem however is like the above example of the "fleamarketeer". That guy is using bogus credentials to give preferrential treatment to a small few, and undercutting any local competition. You are giving preferrential treatment to EVERYONE and undercutting lots of (semi)local competition. By being a nice guy, who exccels at service, and uses a quantity over quality approach to sales you have moved out in front of everyone else.
The problem is that my FLGS can't compete with your prices and they're a Wizard's "Premier Store". They Demo like crazy, encourage broke gamers to play in the store, and would love to sell off excess singles online. But they need your volume to compete. This isn't an issue about you, Amazon.com hurts them too. The owner tries not to get pissed when some kid says "yeah but if I wait 2 more days I can get that book from Amazon for $10.00 bucks less". The same kid, who gets dropped off by his mom 3 times a week while she goes to night classes (free daycare for teenie boppers), who can't find any kids in the seventh grade who want to play D&D. They have Magic tourneys all the time (the kid plays em all), but sell a lot less cards than the guy at the fleamarket 12 miles down the road. The kids friends are at the store though and (we) try to spend money there though, it helps that the owners are so non=chalant that by talking about games they end up selling games.
Being a Premier Store gets them a couple of things, direct buying at better pricing, and more direct access to customer service. Let me assure you, that group of Store Owners has brought up the issues of online competition.
Auggie knows all this though, he has a store with game space. The game space promotes the game and keeps him in touch with gamers. The store allows him to do something he loves. Does it make enough money to support a family? Probobly not. Auggie figured out how to make it viable, sell online (which I imagine is alot of work and kind of a hassle). Auggie just does it too well, he undercuts not only the B&Ms he sells cheaper than the other onlines. While I don't imagine that he could find similar rent in a permanant free-standing building, it is Athens after all, he could locate space. It would require raising his prices, it might also free up the clutter at home. Can he keep it up with the restriction of 50% in store sales? No.
That is the question that we need to ask Wizards, Will they pull all Online venues? I can't imagine that Amazon is paying more per unit of product than Local Gaming X. If Auggie goes , does GamesOutfitter, or Battleworks or god forbid Amazon?
Or should a better system exist. Maybe those B&M stores should get better pricing than even Amazon. I doubt it would solve the problem. Once, Wizards had Corporate owned retail stores. Games Workshop still does. Wizards closed them since they were a bad buisness model i.e., they LOST money. The locals have managed to stay open in some form for 3 decades. But now the internet has presented a challenge they may not survive.
Incedintily (sp?), comparing WotC policy and GW policy regarding both online and B&M stores is inacurate or down right unfair. GW will actually open a store if a local store produces enough sales to warrant it. Thus killing the buisness that endeared the game to the populace. They screw with pricing in ways that confuses even the most astute economist. The online policy is in all likelihood designed to protect their own retail venues. While I've never had any dirrect contact with a GW sales person, I've heard of odd behavior in sales staff from several LGS owners.
If anything, get a more permanent store front, Auggie. Your level of service has set you apart from the Creeps of ebay. If you go, they will return. If that doesn't work, contact Paizo, they could obviously use some help on the online sales front. Or heck, apply at WotC and put, "I sold a quarter million dollars in plasti-crack last year", at the top of the resume. Whatever the case, your reputation, level of service and sheer competence should amount to something. The folks at WotC aren't stupid, they do watch online sales, and in all likelyhood will work something out.
Hell, I'd even sign an NDA and discuss online price minimums with the sales team at Wizards. You order enough that you ought to be buying direct anyway.
This is not the end of the world, and it is not the end of cheap minis. It may however be the end of "super-cheap minis", I can live with that. I'd just like to keep Auggie in the buisness somehow.
EDITED: Because I can't spell. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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Alakhai
Underboss
1842 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 1:58 AM |
| Posted By Alakhai on 09/17/2006 7:06 AM
Hate to burst your bubble, guys, but this kind of decision from WotC is theirs to make and is designed for the single purpose of ensuring the brand's image in the long run.
[...]
Now I'll let you all to your complaining and threatening and whatnot. Those are traits of a childish attitude. Bored of those.
Cheers
Al.
Woops, looks like I've been tripping on the line of politeness - I want to apologise for sounding so sour and overtly aggressive, and especially to those of you that ARE impacted by such business decisions. Because I was not telling YOU to live with it, rather those saying "if the price isn't right, I'll stop buying".
I just wanted to make a point, and I did so a bit bluntly. My point is that there is a reason behind those decisions, good or not, and the consequeces thereof are not unknown to the people taking them. And all of those shouting "if I can't get a decent price by the dozen on the net, I'll quit buying" won't change a thing. That is the proper interpretation of my harsh words. And I still hope those of you having web-shops can rebound and keep your much needed revenues.
Cheers
Al. | |
R-Rated poster
HB: 80/80 - DE: 60/60 - AF: 60/60 - GL: 72/72
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10430 Posts
United States
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10430 Posts
United States
| | 09/18/2006 4:15 AM |
| Posted By Prince o the Raven Banner on 09/18/2006 12:28 AM
This is not the end of the world, and it is not the end of cheap minis. It may however be the end of "super-cheap minis", I can live with that. I'd just like to keep Auggie in the buisness somehow.
Ditto.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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metaphorge
Skirmisher
9 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 5:54 AM |
| Posted By Prince o the Raven Banner on 09/18/2006 12:28 AM
The "Plight of Brick and Mortar Stores" IS the issue.
WotC knows that long term growth of the Hobby is still best handled by B&Ms. I think this is a highly debatable point. It may be the methodology that WOTC has chosen to back, but whether it's "best" will be proven in where things go from here.
There's a hard truth that has to be faced: the paper-based RPG industry (as well as non-electronic gaming as a whole) is in trouble, and has been for many years. I think that fostering a total decline in sales of your product in order to continue an outdated business model out of a mix of inertia and nostalgia is not a particularly wise plan.
I don't know a single gamer who has gone on purchasing redundant $40 rules expansion or revision adter $40 rules expansion or revision for more than a period of a few years... I think this is the real problem WOTC has, not internet sales by small businesspeople at better prices.
If they're really serious about protecting their brick and mortars, then they should stop selling to Amazon et al. Think they'll do that anytime soon?
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 6:35 AM |
| Bummer.
I would advise, though, that you don't threaten, or even suggest the threat, of legal action, but if you do that you spell Amazon.com correctly.
Cheers, man, and good luck. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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sage_raistlin
Sergeant
377 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 6:57 AM |
| Posted By Prince o the Raven Banner on 09/18/2006 12:28 AM
The "Plight of Brick and Mortar Stores" IS the issue.
Good B&M stores, produce more gamers. That is an indisputable fact. They provide a level of visability that home games in basements can't. It is bad for the Hobby as a whole to have B&M's disappear. By Hobby I mean gaming in general, whether it is D&D, DDM, Warhammer, Risk 2112, Warlord, GURPS, MagicTG etc...etc.... WotC knows that long term growth of the Hobby is still best handled by B&Ms. Crying foul at an attempt to keep 100s or maybe 1000s of people in their professions is not a bad policy in modern Corporate America.
Auggie, it sounds like you are a victim of your own success. If you are BUYING $250,000 dollars worth of product you are no longer "little league". As an attempt at scope, if you were a dedicated B&M with no online presence and had similar sales/purchasing power you would likely be one of the top ten grossing Game Stores in the country (if not THE store). You are selling a Quarter of a Million in sales of a single Product Line. That's pretty impresive, and WotC knows it.
The problem however is like the above example of the "fleamarketeer". That guy is using bogus credentials to give preferrential treatment to a small few, and undercutting any local competition. You are giving preferrential treatment to EVERYONE and undercutting lots of (semi)local competition. By being a nice guy, who exccels at service, and uses a quantity over quality approach to sales you have moved out in front of everyone else.
The problem is that my FLGS can't compete with your prices and they're a Wizard's "Premier Store". They Demo like crazy, encourage broke gamers to play in the store, and would love to sell off excess singles online. But they need your volume to compete. This isn't an issue about you, Amazon.com hurts them too. The owner tries not to get pissed when some kid says "yeah but if I wait 2 more days I can get that book from Amazon for $10.00 bucks less". The same kid, who gets dropped off by his mom 3 times a week while she goes to night classes (free daycare for teenie boppers), who can't find any kids in the seventh grade who want to play D&D. They have Magic tourneys all the time (the kid plays em all), but sell a lot less cards than the guy at the fleamarket 12 miles down the road. The kids friends are at the store though and (we) try to spend money there though, it helps that the owners are so non=chalant that by talking about games they end up selling games.
Being a Premier Store gets them a couple of things, direct buying at better pricing, and more direct access to customer service. Let me assure you, that group of Store Owners has brought up the issues of online competition.
Auggie knows all this though, he has a store with game space. The game space promotes the game and keeps him in touch with gamers. The store allows him to do something he loves. Does it make enough money to support a family? Probobly not. Auggie figured out how to make it viable, sell online (which I imagine is alot of work and kind of a hassle). Auggie just does it too well, he undercuts not only the B&Ms he sells cheaper than the other onlines. While I don't imagine that he could find similar rent in a permanant free-standing building, it is Athens after all, he could locate space. It would require raising his prices, it might also free up the clutter at home. Can he keep it up with the restriction of 50% in store sales? No.
That is the question that we need to ask Wizards, Will they pull all Online venues? I can't imagine that Amazon is paying more per unit of product than Local Gaming X. If Auggie goes , does GamesOutfitter, or Battleworks or god forbid Amazon?
Or should a better system exist. Maybe those B&M stores should get better pricing than even Amazon. I doubt it would solve the problem. Once, Wizards had Corporate owned retail stores. Games Workshop still does. Wizards closed them since they were a bad buisness model i.e., they LOST money. The locals have managed to stay open in some form for 3 decades. But now the internet has presented a challenge they may not survive.
Incedintily (sp?), comparing WotC policy and GW policy regarding both online and B&M stores is inacurate or down right unfair. GW will actually open a store if a local store produces enough sales to warrant it. Thus killing the buisness that endeared the game to the populace. They screw with pricing in ways that confuses even the most astute economist. The online policy is in all likelihood designed to protect their own retail venues. While I've never had any dirrect contact with a GW sales person, I've heard of odd behavior in sales staff from several LGS owners.
If anything, get a more permanent store front, Auggie. Your level of service has set you apart from the Creeps of ebay. If you go, they will return. If that doesn't work, contact Paizo, they could obviously use some help on the online sales front. Or heck, apply at WotC and put, "I sold a quarter million dollars in plasti-crack last year", at the top of the resume. Whatever the case, your reputation, level of service and sheer competence should amount to something. The folks at WotC aren't stupid, they do watch online sales, and in all likelyhood will work something out.
Hell, I'd even sign an NDA and discuss online price minimums with the sales team at Wizards. You order enough that you ought to be buying direct anyway.
This is not the end of the world, and it is not the end of cheap minis. It may however be the end of "super-cheap minis", I can live with that. I'd just like to keep Auggie in the buisness somehow.
EDITED: Because I can't spell. B & M stores are having trouble because the business model have change with the on-line market/wal-mart type stores. If they can't compete with the on-line stores, it's not up to WOTC or Hasbro to shut down on-line sales.
Honestly look across the board at all of hasbros stuff that is sold on-line. Things like Star Wars figures, attacktix, transformers, etc. This is a hugh market for them, and I bet that they are making millions on it every year. They need to realize, that no matter what they do it's going to be this way. On-line sales in general keep going up every year as more and more people buy this way. Anything that is a collectable/chaser type thing, is always going to be on-line, no matter what a company does to try to help B & M stores. If they don't want people to be force to buy on-line lower the price and get rid of the sealed box. Otherwise, live in the new age and use the market that exists.
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Hello Boys, I'm Back
Vindicated Champion of the Bat
(not pretty, but it still counts) | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6757 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 7:51 AM |
| | Online sellers are here to stay. WotC shouldn't try to block them, it's pointless and detrimental. Almost all stores have an online presence, and need one. What constitutes a difference between one or the other? | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
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Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 8:05 AM |
| Of course with no restrictions Auggies would have alreay been out of business. Every five gamers out there would have simply got a $100.00 retailers licence and bought thier minis straight from Wotc.
If WOTC would sell to anyone thier would be no distrubtion channells at all. Distrubtion channel protection is standard in most industries.
Flgs are not important because of tournements and what not. they are important because the product is sitting on shelves for people to see.
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Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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ehren37
Sergeant
642 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 8:19 AM |
| Posted By Prince o the Raven Banner on 09/18/2006 12:28 AM
The "Plight of Brick and Mortar Stores" IS the issue.
Good B&M stores, produce more gamers. That is an indisputable fact.
I dont know about that. How did you learn to play? I'd guess from someone who knew already. I learned from my friend's older brother, who let us play in his games. Everyone I know learned from someone who was already playing first, rather than randomly walking intoa store, picking up a biook and decidingto learn. D&D spreads by word of mouth more than anything else I'd say. A storefront isnt essential to that.
Auggie, it sounds like you are a victim of your own success. If you are BUYING $250,000 dollars worth of product you are no longer "little league". As an attempt at scope, if you were a dedicated B&M with no online presence and had similar sales/purchasing power you would likely be one of the top ten grossing Game Stores in the country (if not THE store). You are selling a Quarter of a Million in sales of a single Product Line. That's pretty impresive, and WotC knows it.
Yeah, so he opens a store "front" for his real business (online). He has to pay some employees to run things while he handles the side that actually brings in money - the online singles sales. He now has rent, utilities and salaries to pay. In return, he gets more headaches and less money. What a deal.
That is the question that we need to ask Wizards, Will they pull all Online venues? I can't imagine that Amazon is paying more per unit of product than Local Gaming X. If Auggie goes , does GamesOutfitter, or Battleworks or god forbid Amazon?
Or should a better system exist.
Yeah, like realizing that B&M stores are going the way of mom and pop video stores? Its a model that simply isnt holding up well. | |
Completed trades: Zarnof, Salmander, Pigsnot, qillan_dvra, SilgentG, Ironfist Boulderbender, robdaman.
Reference thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8859
CHAMPION OF THE DOG! | |
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heirodule
Sneak
95 Posts
Philly
| | 09/18/2006 9:40 AM |
| Posted By orcdoubleax on 09/18/2006 8:05 AM Flgs are not important because of tournements and what not. they are important because the product is sitting on shelves for people to see.
Maybe the distributors themselves can start selling an ancillary product to the online/fleamarket sellers: unboxed boosters. I'm sure that would break some kind of contractual obligation, but what do I know.
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Have/Want list
Champion of the DREAM SERPENT | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1399 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 10:39 AM |
| I'll add my voice to the sound of the crowd...
The closest brick and mortar GS is 100 km from my house. Do wotc really think that I'm gonna drive 200 km to get a pair of boosters ? No more "impulse buy".
Let's suppose that online sellers disappear. As most of us in here, I buy cases... These cases are gonna get far more pricey if I have to buy them at brick and mortar GS, so it means I'll get less minis as my income doesn't allow me to pay more... Not good.
But it is worse : I want to finish my set. 2 solutions :
- try my luck and buy boosters ? No way, I'm not buying 25 boosters (at full price) to finally get the rare I'm missing (and getting a ton of unwanted commons and uncommons in the process).
- buy singles ? How ? Online-only sellers have disappeared, and my brick and mortar GS do not sell singles. The only solution is to buy at online stores which are brick and mortar too. But they are very few (a handful in France, and I'm not sure I'd need all the fingers to count them). Want a 12 euros khumat ? Warduke for 20 euros ?? Huge fire elemental or spider for 18 euros (no kidding, real exemples here) ??? They already have almost no competition, I can't even imagine the increase of prices...
Oh, what did I hear ? Brick and mortar stores promote the game, organize tournaments and so on ?
Hmmmm, no. For the 5 closest stores (let's say it again, 100 and 150 km from my house), I have NEVER seen or heard of a DDM tournament... Clix from time to time, but that's all. Posted By sage_raistlin on 09/18/2006 6:57 AM
They need to realize, that no matter what they do it's going to be this way. On-line sales in general keep going up every year as more and more people buy this way.
Ditto. In french they say "c'est le vent de l'histoire". Internet is here to stay, and more and more sales will be done online. Lots of shops will disappear (RPG related or not), and there's nothing wotc or even hasbro can do about it. Deal with it.
In conlusion : if my fave online store should disappear, I'm out of this business (and I have enough minis to game for my lifetime).
My wife will be happy however, as the 1000 - 1500 euros I spend each year on DDM will be used for other things, i.e. longer summer holidays in exotic countries and so on... Too bad for wotc...
And I'm sure I'm not the only one in this case.
Oh, and as many others I'm waiting to see if Amazon is still allowed to sell boosters in the future... | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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yack
Commander
3261 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 09/18/2006 1:03 PM |
| PaSquall
I totally agree and with you... | |
Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2711 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 09/18/2006 1:15 PM |
| | I don't think there is enough 'buying power' on these boards for WotC to be concerned with our opinion. | |
In the constellation of
Cygnus, there lurks a
mysterious, invisible
force:
Rush | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 1:29 PM |
| | Actually I think there is. The problem is that "we" do not act as a monolithic entity and will all buy and purchase as we all see fit. The combined purchases by the members of this and sites like this consitute a substantial portion of the overall sales and many of us also act as market leaders for exapaned circles as well. We buy, and then our friends buy in. There is a reason WoTC people posted and participated on this site as much as they did and do. Our collective opinions and buying matter. | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
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kniterangr
Warrior
287 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 6:05 PM |
| I for one am disappointed to hear this. Wizards originally tried to drive out all the B&Ms by putting in their own retail stores. The market changes and the businesses need to adapt. I know that I quit buy Games Workshop because of them raising their prices and pulling the online business. Their products took a huge dive in the US once they did that, in my opinion.
There is a reason all of us started buying Wizards minis... they were less expensive and they were pre-painted. The bonus was they came with the skirmish game. Raising the price and forcing us to buy at full retail takes away one of the reasons to buy their product. The quality of painting has been down so I do not see the pre-painting as a huge benefit anymore. (If the previews of BW pan out then the pre-paint might be back in. Then I would have to consider what value pre-painting had.) And I have never really gotten into the skirmish game, because there are no more B&Ms in my area within an hours drive (Thanks, Wizards).
I was looking for an excuse to quit collecting DDM and if this is true I found it. I spend well over $1500 a year on their minis (online, not including secondary markets or purchases at B&Ms which I do go to) and I suspect that I purchase on the low end compared to many others here. A few years ago that was money in my pocket. If enough of us quit they will notice. By the way, I am not a customer of Auggies. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 09/18/2006 6:55 PM |
| Email sent.
The whole B&M augrement seems so lop sided. Auggies cheaper prices is helping the game.
Not all B&M shops are supporting gaming, indeed it seems as common that they dont.
Seems so old fashioned to have a restircition based on online/offline sales.
/2 coppers | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Harneloot
Sergeant
575 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 7:20 PM |
| In conlusion : if my fave online store should disappear, I'm out of this business (and I have enough minis to game for my lifetime).
My wife will be happy however, as the 1000 - 1500 euros I spend each year on DDM will be used for other things, i.e. longer summer holidays in exotic countries and so on... Too bad for wotc...
And I'm sure I'm not the only one in this case.
Oh, and as many others I'm waiting to see if Amazon is still allowed to sell boosters in the future... Exactly!
And I think Mr. Zenako is 100% right.
Who would like to organize us? | |
"What is to give light must endure burning" -Viktor Frankl
Champion of the Large Myconid
Deacon of the ANY aligned Raistlin. | |
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Jade Phoenix
Skirmisher
10 Posts
| | 09/18/2006 11:44 PM |
| Whereas the fate of the Brick and Mortar is an issue this is not the solution.
First of all we live in a Capitalist society. What WOTC is trying to do is most probably illegal. The Sherman Anti-Trust Act is still in effect last time I looked. Now it has been a few years since I was I college but even Microsoft got nailed for controlling their products BEFORE & AFTER they were sold to distributors. (Yes that even included pricing issues) Granted Microsoft doesn’t care because the world needs Microsoft but the word does not need WOTC. Once a manufacture sells their product that’s it. Last time I looked Hasbro wanted to make a profit. Maybe they changed their mind and decided not to pursue a profit for the company’s shareholders. It could happen.
Second, this little policy is hypocritical. Barnes & Nobel does not offer gaming space and Amazon does not even have space to offer. Sit down for a cappuccino in the over priced coffee shop of a big box book store and see how long it take to get kicked out if you so much as crack open the new gaming books you just bought. Amazon.com has over 1000 items on its website with a couple of hundred out of print items that my local B&M’s can’t even get. They even have Under Dark in bulk. Wal-Mart has hundreds of current items on its web site but find one running an event. Lets look at Target that has a hundreds of pokemon and magic cards right at the checkout lines and hundreds more online. See any events listed at the local Target café? I didn’t think so. Now you better believe that they get an even grater discount on products than any of use could EVER get from a distributor. Is WOTC going to stop selling to them? NO! The stockholders would have somebody’s head on plate. This little inconsistency alone could get WOTC nailed for “Unfair business practices”.
Third, B&M’s DO NOT produce new customers. Sorry. How often does someone just stroll into a gaming store out of the blue and say “what kind of place is this”. It does not, nor has it ever happened beyond the 1 in 1000 ratio. I do not deny that a minuscule percentage of people have stumbled into a store because they had a marquee or signage that caught their eye or were looking for comic books, I am simply stating a verifiable fact. State whatever theories you wish empirical observation overrides the validity of theory. I have hung around gaming stores for 26 years, longer than many of you have been alive and longer than most of you have played so if I speak with authority it has been earned with a quarter of a century of experience. (And yes a former Storeowner with two other people.) The ONLY B&M’s that can generate new hobbyist are the very few in a Mall or a flea market. Last weekend at Auggis we had three tables full of new kids. The old hats were teaching the game and guess what? The kids loved it and are bringing more of their friends next week. How did they find out about the game? They walked past a big open are with a bunch of kewl looking “thingies”. People like you and me introduce new people to the hobby. We tell people about our hobby and it is our actions that bring new gamers into the fold. Granted the venues hold awesome events and have a lot of nifty things for sale, but WE bring the new customers to them. Auggi provided the means to bring in half a dozen new players in one weekend where as my regular venue as produced two new gamers in the last year. He was able to do this because he DOES have a physical store and actively promotes the hobby.
Forth, WOTC is making a HUGE assumption. If the big online stores are eliminated then everyone will go to B&M’s for their products. WRONG! I love the owners my regular venue to death. I have known Sean and Laura years. I would do anything in the world for them. I was the 4th customer they ever had. (You should see the look in customer’s eyes when they overhear my video membership number is simply 4.) YET I would not buy WOTC minis from them any more. (I only buy a few boosters now and again to support their store. I give the junk I can’t trade or don’t need to new kids who get into the game.) Why? I am a Role Playing Gamer first and foremost. I buy tons of minis that suck in the DDM game because I need them for minis NOT DDM. My venue does not sell any singles of any product line. There is not enough of a client base to justify such an investment of resources. Only B&M’s in major metropolitan areas will have the client base to sell singles. So where will people like me get singles or lots of DDM’s? eBay. What will happen is the other people on eBay will simply bide there time and jack the prices out of this world like it was before. How are you going to prove that Store X does not sell half its products inside their physical store? (I hope you folks realize that it is my friend Auggi who brought the prices down in the first place.) The prices will dry out the RPG market because the DDM minis will then be comparable to metal minis and people like me will go back to metal. A secondary effect is that the shift from WOTC products to competitors’ products is that the gap in market share will shrink. This is something stockholders and company board members REALY don’t like. There is a company that sells 30 metal minis in a bag for $25. The price difference between the other companies metal minis and DDM minis is on average is less than 40%. It will not take much of a price increase to shift my resources in that direction. Even with all the trading boards out there many RPG’s do not and will not buy in the volume to benefit from such avenues. Besides how many people will have thirteen cultists on hand? This will occur if WOTC tries to enforce this policy. I am not threatening to boycott WOTC rather I am simply stating they are about to start a series of events that will price themselves out of the market. This does not even begin to cover the client base for Star Wars who are only collectors and could care less about the game. They do not usually buy products like we do rather they buy cases online for nearly cost and sell the extras on eBay. I think we have all seen the line “……I am just a collector” on a lot of auctions. The singles market is not the problem. I can accept the argument that the people who sell cases online $10 over cost is killing the physical B&M sales but perhaps the local B&M’s should consider offering a bulk discount. A bird in the hand is better than no bird at all. WOTC would do well to bring in an economist and political science major to help explain cause and effect because the bean counters are off on this one
Fifth and perhaps most important the traditional brick and mortar stores need to change the pyridines in which they conduct business. The only constant in the universe is that things change. What worked ten years ago won’t necessarily work today and most likely won’t work ten years from now. You are reading this on a monitor connected to a computer of some sort. Ten years ago you did not see computers at Wal-Mart but today you can buy a 3.3 ghz duel processor 64bit computer with a flat screen monitor for a few hundred dollars. Times change and gaming stores have to change as well or fade into the history books. They need to diversify their products and services to stay competitive. My regular venue has a rental section of hundreds of Japanese Animated films that constitute the largest percentage of their profit. I personally know of one small venue in Mississippi that was made from a hundred and fifty year old mill. The owner made it his family home as well as a convenience store and gaming store. The store was huge to say the least but he was able to afford to operate in a small town because he had the profits from the gas station and the whole thing was also his home. (Best store I ever saw in my life and I have seen a hundred or more from Washington D.C. to Orlando all the way out to California.) Now few stores will have the luck that this guy did but you get my point. Diversify of die. Get a few copiers and open a copy center or a coffee shop. I even saw one gaming store that rented out the rather large gaming group to a mission church on Sunday! If no product was ever sold online again the local B&M’s will see little if any additional income or support. It is the responsibility of individual storeowners to make their own stores work. I am not saying that gaming companies should not help provide material to support the product lines. That support is what helps people like you and me bring new players in. WizKids had a War College event that let every participants get a really awesome piece to start their collection. The local Battle Master and I brought half a dozen new players for that and we ended up with one new gamer and expanded another gamers collection. Once again let me point out the fact that it was gamers who grew the hobby.
Regulating who can and who cannot buy a company’s product from a distributor is not the answer. In truth it will only hurt the industry as a whole. If you do not believe me just ask your local venue, should you be lucky enough to have one, how they like dealing with Games Workshop. Most venues do not even carry their product because they are such a pain to deal with. The feelings towards Games Workshop are a hundred times worse from distributors. The distributors catch living heck if a B&M store drops the price by so much as a single penny. Some distributors refuse to carry their products because of Games Workshop’s attitudes. I fear that WOTC is starting to head down that slippery slope. If distributors loose clients like Auggi don’t think for a second they wont forget it. “I am sorry Mr. WOTC you will have to lower our cost in order for us to afford your products. We have experienced a massive loss with your products as of late and are concerned about obtaining a lot of product that wont move.” What will happen to a company’s bottom line when distributors cut their orders in half?
Think about this very carefully WOTC because you are about to slit your own throat.
And to Prince o the Raven Banner I feel the plight of your local venue but the problem is theirs alone. Lower the cost on your book. Find out how shipping is and come in about the same level. If the kid saves $10 on Amazon but pays $3 in s/h then knock off $8. Hello it is not brain surgery. A slightly less profit margin is far better than no sale at all. If he does not like being a baby sitter then post a sign in the window like one of my local venues “No children under 15 allowed without adult supervision” and no more baby-sitting headaches. While he is making signage he could simply make one that states that gamming space is for customers only. Gamers do not mind this and most venues don’t mind the customers rounding out their collections when they have been good customers. Few people buy exclusively online let alone piecemeal. As far as singles go it only takes a few extra cases to sell singles. The problem is most B&M’s do not have the ability to do singles without an online presence because of the number of players in a given area. Auggi started with next to nothing and so can they. Also I sincerely hope you are not calling Auggis credentials bogus. He is and has been a real store with as large a gaming area as any store in Atlanta Georgia to include the now defunct WOTC store and the Games Workshop store. He may only be open half the week but that’s when gamers game and shop the most. He recently doubled his store area size just to promote the hobby. He does not receive any special treatment from distributors. To them he is just another customer and receives the same exact service you or I would. As to your comments about undercutting everyone’s prices, he gets the products at the same price they do and they set their own prices where they want to he does not set it for them. The concept that he can provide a better value for your dollar is the very principal of our capitalist society. Nothing is stopping them from buying a hundred cases of Blood Wars and selling 1c bellow Auggi.
And to all: Auggis crime is to have found a viable way to operate a gaming store by lowering the crack high absurd prices, becoming the industry standard in customer service and online shipping and still bring new players into the gaming community while paying himself a modest percentage as personal income. Others cannot or will not follow his lead so they cry foul and run to mommy for help.
Just a though | | | |
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Weaponbreaker
Skirmisher
47 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 1:32 AM |
| Jade that was a very well articulated essay. You were very right at times and very wrong at times but overall I liked the completness of your thought and post.
WotC is allowed to say to their distributors you may not pass our product onto 'person X' and if you do we will terminate our mutual agreement. Microsoft and WotC's businesses are completely different and it is quite unfair to compare them, MS got into hot water by trying to make their OS and hardware uncompatible with the opposition, WotC on the other hand developed the OGL...this is one illustration and you are allowed to disagree with me.
This policy has been in place for years...years, atleast 3 that I know of. WotC is not as draconian as GW IS, they merely take the time to remind their distributors of the rules in doing business with them. I have never heard of nor seen a single report of a distributor losing WotC due to selling beyond the agreement. Most online sellers use deals with B&M stores or are B&M stores themselves. Usually this works to everyone advantage allowing the B&M to add 5% or so to the cost of bulk orders, and still allowing non-retail sellers to profit. This is not a big deal and will not affect the DDM scene online or anywhere else, unless you are an online seller attached to a distributor who is operating outside the business agreement.
I think it would suck to have Auggi shut down, I shop have there to fill my collections for the last couple of sets, but as a company WotC is allowed to determine how their product is sold and represented. Tell Auggi good luck and thank you for your good work in passing this hobby along to younger people. | |
Hunter of CE d20's. Destroyer of false hope and punisher evil dice across the planes. | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 2:29 AM |
| To Jade Phoenix,
I am not cracking on Auggie, nor am I calling his credentials bogus. If anything I am wondering why he is not buying directly from WotC. He certainly qualifies for Premier status.
I fear he has been targeted by (an old and well thought out) policy that is intended to Protect the Hobby. Fortunatly he has a reputation that SHOULD get him some leeway. I, personally, think that he has been invaluable in stabilizing aftermarket prices. I also believe that that stabilization is good for WotC.
He is not, however, paying the same prices as everyone else. If Adam from 1000s of Minis is having to buy through a B&M he is paying more. Maybe not much more, but more. I can't buy from a Distributor. Should Auggie? My gut says yes, because he does HAVE a store, albeit a slightly unconventional one.
I incidentily have seen a person wander in to a B&M and say "What's this store Sell?". They get an answer and usually don't come back, but occasionally one does. I have seen this recently (let's say 3 times over this last summer) and fully expect to see it more. If the folks who run this store have ANY buisness, being in this buisness, they will capitalize on that random walkin.
That is retail sales. Location factors in to it, adequet sales staff as well, friendly attitudes do as well. If every one of the "Bad" stores mentioned in this thread just took the time to actually operate a buisness rather than an adult clubhouse the Hobby would be in better shape. Auggie seems to realize this (so do you for that matter), and that is the point that needs to be made to WotC. There are far to many Game shops in this country staffed by pallid, angry, anti-social troglodytes who find everyone they meet to be a moron. When they go out of buisness it is the natural order of things. An energetic owner that is dedicated to building his/her buisness is the guy that might just need a helping hand. Especially if that owner just replaced the local Trog.
To Orc Double Axe,
I too learned to play from a friends older brother. We played for 2 years, then I moved. I taught the game to new friends, and we played for awhile. Then I moved and I tried to teach it to new friends, but was caught up in that stupid "Mazes and Minotaurs" nonsense. B.A.D.D. was on TV 3 times a week. My new friends had parents that didn't want their kids involved with D&D. My recourse, a B&M game shop, that let this little kid sit in on a game or 2. I liked D&D just fine, but a Game Shop taught me alot. It is where I saw someone who was actually good at being a DM, that guy taught me how to be a better DM once I got a new group of players.
So I learned D&D from a friends big brother. I learned ROLEPLAYING in a game shop.
That was the point I failed at making. To my mind Game Shops are kinda like the YMCA or the community Rec. Center, just focusing on mental over physical sports.
And to all the folks who say to hell with B&Ms,
Unless you are taking it upon yourself to teach ROLEPLAYING games to kids (and not just your own) deal with the fact that oneday you might run out of people to play with. All the kids that you didn't teach it too will be playing WOW IX or Morrowwind v.6.9 and think that antiquated P&P game is for old foggies.
I know alot of folks here do teach the game, in any venue they can. I don't roleplay at a store, cause I don't want to stop at closing time. I of course have a house, with a big table. Not everyone does though. I still contact prospective new players through a store however. My line of work doesn't lead me to a wellspring of individules that are potential RPG gamers. My golf buddies have zero interest in games unless there is gambling involved or girls. The B&M is invaluable, but I have access to a really good store. I find it unfortunate that all don't.
For all those that are gonna quit the game or at least buying DDM. Stop and think about that, you know you'll get more just as soon as Umberhulks get redone, because you need them. WotC makes a product, and makes it cheaper than everyone else. If you have enough Minis, then you have enough minis. Auggie, Amazon, price hikes/reductions won't change that. Once your boxes are full you either get new boxes or you don't. One day (soon) I will have enough to last me. Only Plasticrack addiction keeps me buying now. If paying retail is that bad, check out the prices on Reaver Minis.
As for Organization,
If I had the skills I would start an online petition to "Save Auggies". An affordable Singles Seller is a good idea.
Just no more Blasting on Vesivus or 1000's of Minis ,because the one thing I have learned in this thread is there needs to be a level playing field. Vesivus offers a service, he backlists items, puts up cool stat cards and has to deal with a Monetary exchange. Saying his prices are outrageous is unfair. If he were operating with minimal overhead his prices might be much lower. If Adam were able to buy direct from a distributor his prices would be lower as well. All of this needs to be considered by WotC. If they suddenly make Online sellers equal to B&Ms whats to say the "Fleamarketeer" issue isn't an issue again.
Manufacturers have rules regarding product Distribution. I deal with it in Food stuffs, beer, liquor and sundries in my own buisness. My father has similar arrangements in the Pulp and Paper industry. Getting angry over a corporations distribution policy is folly, as we don't know the whole picture and won't, because we are in fact outsiders. We are the end market, not the middlemen. A little research might help us understand all this a little better.
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Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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auggest
Sneak
130 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 5:21 AM |
|
He is not, however, paying the same prices as everyone else. If Adam from 1000s of Minis is having to buy through a B&M he is paying more. Maybe not much more, but more. I can't buy from a Distributor. Should Auggie? My gut says yes, because he does HAVE a store, albeit a slightly unconventional one.
2 problems here. And again I have nothing but respect for Vesuvius and ahub and all the other sellers out there. However, what the person selling to Adam (ahub) is doing is ALSO against WotC policy, he just has not grown large enough for WotC to really notice. 2nd my discount at my wholesalers is (about) 2% better than smaller accounts because of my volume and this depends on the product. 2% does not sound like much and has little impact on indivual prices but when you have a $20,000 order thats an extra $200. I should also point out that it only recently quallified for that discount.
Next everyone seems to be under the assumption that I have no overhead, well I do and it's alot more than you would think. As large as a 7 day B&M? well no, but I bet I pay more in 1) payroll (minis don't sort themselves, jump in packages and print their own mailing labels out and I service too many customers to do it all myself) 2) Fees, while my fixed costs are not even close to a B&M's my % per sale is alot higher and my fixed are not exactly negligable (about $200 a month for store fee, database program and other misc charges...and I am talking about my online only here not my B&M).
Infact, I have posted on these boards before EXACTLY how much I make and how I set my prices but will breifly mention it again. My goal is to get as close to 35% markup as possible. About 12% goes to Ebay, 12% to employees and I pay myself 7% gross of all orders,so on a $100 order I pocket exactly $7 before taxes. The rest goes to buying product back, fixing mistakes (an expence B&M's don't have) and a very modest % for growth. Now getting that markup as close to 35% as possible is trickier than you would think as some pieces simply don't sell (anyone wanna buy 2,000 wrackspawns cheep?) and discounting these below a certin point becomes non profitable as the fees and time to processes the order become greater than the amount I can break even on (EXCLUDING THE COST OF THE FIGURE EVEN). If I sell a x10 wrackspawn at $.49 they would most likely sell but it would cost me $1 to package it and pay the employee to assemble the order. At some point some figures become write offs and will likely become piles of melted plastic puddles in the future (though I have never actually melted them..that would be sacralidge). Add all this up, do some reverse math and you will see that I come to about a 10%-15% off retail price for my items. That's not a huge discount and most stores offer this or more to regular customers (or have some kind of gaming club you join and save).
As for "undercutting" others thats not how I set prices, granted I do check other stores frequently but this is more to see whats hot and moving than to directly undercut. When I raise a price on a rare because it is moving that means I can lower a price on other figures to compensate. I DO look to see which of my figures are higher an choose from those which has the selling benifit of moving it up to the top when customers are sorting by price.
Lastly a note for SAM (Jade Phionix). WOW when did you learn to articulate your thoughts so well....Does this mean we have to stop calling you "Wessly lite" up at the shop 
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I R SPEELING GOD | |
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Username
Warlord
5689 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 6:11 AM |
| | Any official word yet? | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10430 Posts
United States
| | Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6757 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 6:36 AM |
| Posted By auggest on 09/19/2006 5:21 AM
2% does not sound like much and has little impact on indivual prices but when you have a $20,000 order thats an extra $200.
It's actually $400.
No official responses yet huh. That's too bad, hopefully this means they're trying to work something out for Auggies. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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sage_raistlin
Sergeant
377 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 7:15 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 09/19/2006 6:36 AM Posted By auggest on 09/19/2006 5:21 AM
2% does not sound like much and has little impact on indivual prices but when you have a $20,000 order thats an extra $200.
It's actually $400. No official responses yet huh. That's too bad, hopefully this means they're trying to work something out for Auggies.
I'll be amazed if we get a response from them....
Everyone here has brought of valid points on both sides of the fence, but boil it all down and it still comes down to two basic questions.
If stores can't adjust to the way the market works, then they will go under and it's not up to a producer to try to change the market place.
Secondly, Hasbro's products are being sold by amazon, buy, overstock. If only B & M stores can buy their products, then there is a major problem here that there large companys can. You can't have it both ways. | |
Hello Boys, I'm Back
Vindicated Champion of the Bat
(not pretty, but it still counts) | |
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Thousandsofminis
Warrior
269 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 7:27 AM |
| Auggie where did you get the info that buying from a brick's and mortar store and reselling goes against their policies as well? When I inquired directly with Wizards two years ago almost now, that is exactly what they told me to do. I'm also now not buying online from them, I am buying in person, and will be picking up my Blood War order, so it is not an online sale for them. As far as everythign I have been told by customer service there is nothing wrong with that at all. Just wondering where you got that information.
Adam
Thousandsofminis | |
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Gallandv
Sneak
73 Posts
Lafayette, La.
| | 09/19/2006 8:05 AM |
| I wouldn’t think you will get an official response. The reason being is that outrage over this issue will lose steam and move onto the next issue and they know it, as it could be over something as trivial as the next preview has a botched paint job. I don’t think it should lose steam but it is human nature I’m afraid. If you do get an official response, and again I reiterate that I feel you will not, then it will skirt the subject with the normal mean nothing terms. What you will not get, I assure you, is an answer to the question of other internet businesses like Amazon and Wal-Mart. The biggest question for me is not why they are doing it but why they are not doing it across the board. If a certain percentage of your sells have to be in store then why are Wal-Mart and Amazon not included in those requirements? As far as I am concerned what Auggie is doing to the FLGS is no different then what Amazon and Wal-Mart are doing. Do you think when they shut Auggie, and those like him, down that those people that they just put out of a mini supplier will go to there FLGS. I can assure you this will not happen. Those people who just lost there favorite miniature supplier will turn to another miniature supplier on-line like Amazon. What they are trying to accomplish is to make the singles market look less appealing. They want you as a consumer to buy another 6 boosters in trying to pick up that Pit Fiend you haven’t acquired yet instead of paying Auggie $16 for it. It has nothing to do with the FLGS survival. If it did they wouldn’t stab them with the massive sword of Amazon. Think about it for a second. Amazon undercuts my FLGS prices by about 32%. This does not help the FLGS but makes way to much money for the company to stop selling it to them. My point is it’s not the FLGS, that’s just rhetoric that tries to make them look like they are sympathetic to the little guy when in fact they are not. They are however trying to get you to buy more boosters to complete your collection. I may be wrong, Lord knows it’s happened before and will happen again. I just feel that it’s not to eliminate on-line sells or to protect any other business interests other then there own (and I am not hypocritical enough to say I wouldn’t in their shoes). There are a bunch of on-line places that sell singles just not many that sell them at a price that wouldn’t be considered outrageous. EBay is the only route to get them affordable and so those are the places they will target. I wish it wasn’t so but Auggie is right. They will pick off the big ones to keep the singles prices from being so affordable and therefore attractive. Now they can't keep Auggie from buying and selling them he just can't go through a distributor. This means he will have to raise his prices and add that to the already increased price of boosters. I’m not paying $35 for a Large Green Dragon. He is all I am missing for my WotDQ set and will buy him from Auggie when I get paid. Would I pay $35 or more for him if that wasn’t available? No. I would not buy more boosters to get him either. I would just do without him I guess. Note: I don’t think Auggie is hurting the FLGS but said that to show a point in what is being perceived. ***This is not an attack on WoTC but just a business assessment*** | | | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6757 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 8:11 AM |
| (I posted this at hordelings and wanted to spread the msg here)
I have a really simple question in regards to the FLGS.
If FLGS sold at the price the internet shops did (plus a little extra for the difference in shipping), would they be in as bad of shape as they are now?
Sure they would make less per booster, maybe $2 instead of $10, but wouldn't they be moving product like lightning?
Maybe the problem isn't Hasbro's MSRP or online shops at all, maybe it's the PERCIEVED percentage that B&M shops are expecting to get from each booster/case.
2cents.
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Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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auggest
Sneak
130 Posts
| | 09/19/2006 8:31 AM |
| Posted By Thousandsofminis on 09/19/2006 7:27 AM
Auggie where did you get the info that buying from a brick's and mortar store and reselling goes against their policies as well? When I inquired directly with Wizards two years ago almost now, that is exactly what they told me to do. I'm also now not buying online from them, I am buying in person, and will be picking up my Blood War order, so it is not an online sale for them |
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