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Wraithborne
Commander
4305 Posts
    
The Red Light District
 | | 12/24/2007 9:37 AM |
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Now that it's later in the month and more info has come out, I find that my views have changed dramatically for the worse. Pretty much all of my favorite monsters are getting mangled in ways that mean now if we ever do get a mini for them, I likely won't even want it, like the new Large Earth Eleme...I mean Mountain Giant.
Â
The whole massive fluff change reminds me of the D&D movies. With decades of material to use, this is what we get?!?
To quote the late, great Patches O'Houlihan, "It's like watching a bunch of retards trying to hump a doorknob."
Elves worshipping Gruumsh, Dwarves that can't see in the dark, Ice Devil Yugoloths, Eladrin are elves...or is that one the other way around...Dragons that look terrible, Dreamblade leftovers, Giants that look like Elementals...and can't make up their mind what size they are, all the outer planes crammed into the elemental planes, Tieflings that are core and apparently now all look the same.....bah I could go on for hours.
What I'm really trying to say is that it's over for me and WotC. It's sad, but I find that I'm no longer on the same planet as their target market and I'm peachy keen with staying that way. I've been reduced in the span of a few short months from a guy who bought about 1/2 the books they'd put out per year and, at my peak, 8 cases a set to wondering if there are a few minis coming in future sets that I may want to pick up from Auggie.
I also find that at this point I'm done with 4e altogether. I don't see the point in having or reading any more discussion about something that I have no intention of ever even looking at. The more we discuss 4e, good or bad, the more it's talked about in general and they say any publicity is good publicity. They'll get no more from me. | |
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni" at will to old ladies.
-Roger the Shrubber | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2123 Posts
| | 12/24/2007 11:14 AM |
| Sorry too see you go. I respect your opinions on 4th edition and i think WOTC needs it. The way this game is changing makes me feel old. Theres going to be new rule mechanics and new races ive barely heard of in my games. 3.0 and 3.5 made the game come alive again in which i thought it was dead for ever.
Im not happy with some of the changes to 4.0 but it is way to early to abandon ship for me. | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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scallamander
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/24/2007 8:44 PM |
| I am so with you Wraithborne. Our group is sticking to 3.5. Our DM has so much material, I can't see us moving away from that setup. This last campaign we've been running through is called the Age of Worms, and I'd highly recommend it be played through in its entirety. Not sure what Dragon/Dungeon magazine, but the material can be found/downloaded.
4e seems to follow the overall pussification of America pattern, let's make everyone take their shoes off at airports because of one guy with a bomb in his shoe, let's stop all technological progress by putting a stop to all copying and sharing of material, let's give a trophy to every kid on every soccer team because even losers need awards, and let's remove any sort of complexity from D&D because its just too hard for some people. Ok, so I'm all over the place there, but that's the way I feel about 4e. The, 'lets get more people into the game, by dumbing it down' strategy, is not my cup of tea.
I'm not going to be....
'attacking the darkness'
'making an attack roll to pickup a magic item'
'missing power attack, because i'll still be power attacking in 3.5'Â --> prime example, power attack is tooooo hard, so lets get rid of it in 4e, whaaaaaah
'playing virtual d&d on the internet'
'buying new books, especially players handbooks that only go to Xth level'
'losing interesting in Greyhawk in the next 10 years'
There is just too much to not like for me in 4e so, I'm not out, but sticking with 3.5 for my campaigning and for my mini's skirmishing. It will be interesting to see how much 3.5 exists at GenCon in July/Aug 2008, because I bet there's still a serious following.
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My Trade Reference Thread
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/436843/Default.aspx | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10429 Posts
United States
| | 12/25/2007 5:21 PM |
| I will be sticking with 3.5 until the sub-campaign I've been running ends. (For a hint about the duration of my sub-campaigns, the campaign which these sub-campaigns belong to has been in progress since the mid 1980s...)
So, while I will get the 4e material and learn it (I am an RPGA judge and intend to continue to be), I will continue to run my home game using 3.5 rules until that sub-campaign finishes.
Then, probably 2 or 3 years from now, I'll start a new sub-campaign within my broader campaign, and it'll use the 4e rules.
I won't, however, abandon the D&D game.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 12/26/2007 5:22 PM |
| I definitely understand. I don't thin 4E is that bad, but I am waiting to see. We're in a good Star Wars campaign, so I'm in no hurry to convert. H1 will defintely be picked up, and probably the core books. After that, it depends on feedback and my personal group.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 12/26/2007 9:02 PM |
| | But you can still keep posting! I'm sure there's something else that will come out that you can hate before you see it that you can still write about... | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5091 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 12/26/2007 9:11 PM |
| I like to grouse too much to quit browsing the 4e forum  | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12367 Posts
The G Spot
| | 12/27/2007 4:39 AM |
| Posted By bshugg on 12/26/2007 9:02 PM
But you can still keep posting! I'm sure there's something else that will come out that you can hate before you see it that you can still write about...
Fixed that for ya.
But you can still keep posting! I'm sure there's something else that will come out that you can love before you see it that you can still write about...
It works both ways, you know. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6755 Posts
| | 12/27/2007 5:13 AM |
| | I hope you stick around at least until the material is analyzed/explored in a pdf or something. I may not like stuff either, but the fluff might be changed for 4e fairly easy to accommodate 3.5 fluff. You never know. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 12/27/2007 8:33 AM |
| and let's remove any sort of complexity from D&D because its just too hard for some people.
This attitude is so elitist and misguided that it literally makes me fume. There is a fundamental difference between simplifying and streamlining. D&D is finally learning what boardgames and trading card games (Magic) learned many years ago: complexity for its own sake is stupid and deters new gamers.
Nothing I've read in the previews suggests that the depth of D&D is being modified. You still have armor classes, attack bonuses and saves. Hit points are there. the basic mechanics are all similar. The difference is that, as described, the system is more internally consistent. Treating saving throws like armor class makes total sense- if you were designing the game from scratch today you'd get dogged to hell by reviewers if you chose one mechanic for melee attacks and another mechanic for spell attacks if they both accomplished the same thing. So why not make the game more consistent and competitive with modern RPG systems?
Characters have even more choices to make during design. Some of the "fake" depth is gone- skill points are going away, thank goodness. The amount of time needed to correctly figure skills was disproportionate to the amount of impact they had on play, especially with NPCs. But nothing I've seen is "dumbing it down." Taking out skill points isn't dumbing it down- taking out skill points is making the game less stupid and archaic.
Now don't get me wrong- simplifying a game to the point of removing depth is not a good thing. If your character has fewer choices in any given situation, then that's a bad thing. But there's no evidence of that happening. I'm not saying it won't- hell, we haven't seen the system yet. It might be so bad that it sucks black holes into its lightless depths. But none of the previews suggest that the game is headed in that direction.
Good God, give the game a chance before declaring that it's "dumbed down"
As for your examples,
I'm not going to be....
'attacking the darkness'
'making an attack roll to pickup a magic item'
Well, good, I don't think anyone else will be doing those either. Inane silliness that you grabbed out of nowhere.
'missing power attack, because i'll still be power attacking in 3.5' --> prime example, power attack is tooooo hard, so lets get rid of it in 4e, whaaaaaah
No, it wasn't taken out because it was "toooooo hard," it was taken out because it slowed combat down for no good reason for many groups. The difference between -2/+4 and -3/+6 is usually trivial, and yet you had countless players trying to come up with the "optimal" solution, that in the long run really didn't exist- in other words, it added fake complexity and very real tedium. In some ways, I always saw power attack as emblematic of one of the worst additions 3.x made to D&D- replacing strategy with number crunching. I'm happy it's gone.
I will say, though, that this is as close as you come to making a logical argument back by evidence. I can see why people might miss power attack, and there's a legitimate argument to be made for its inclusion. The argument you're making, though, ain't it.
'playing virtual d&d on the internet'
Since thousands of players already do that with 3.x, I don't see the issue here. 4e isn't adding anything new- it's putting out a product that's competing with at least three other major products that are already out there. No one is obligating you to play this way now, and I doubt they will be in the future.
'buying new books, especially players handbooks that only go to Xth level'
What you do with your money is your own business. But handbooks that only go to Xth level? They've been out for 25 years (Check out BECM D&D, still one of my favorite editions of the game), and I love, love, LOVE the fact that teh designers realize that a limited design space is needed for proper balancing.
'losing interesting in Greyhawk in the next 10 years'
What does that have to do with anything? Greyhawk has been the third campaign world for many years, and all indications point to it being supported about as well in 4e (note the "new campaign setting every year" comment).
I recoginize there is such a thing as irrational exuberance, and I choose not to participate in any fanboy-raving not back up by evidence. But sure you have to recognize that you're doing the exact opposite: demonstrating irrational hatred of a system that's hardly been previewed.
Give me some solid examples of dumbing down the system, not a laundry list of stupid quotes from anecdotal gaming sessions or default Luddite propaganda (Competers suck! Da Internets are bad!).
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References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Wraithborne
Commander
4305 Posts
The Red Light District
| | 12/27/2007 9:01 AM |
| Posted By Puggins on 12/27/2007 8:33 AM
Nothing I've read in the previews suggests that the depth of D&D is being modified. You still have armor classes, attack bonuses and saves.
No, it wasn't taken out because it was "toooooo hard," it was taken out because it slowed combat down for no good reason for many groups. The difference between -2/+4 and -3/+6 is usually trivial, and yet you had countless players trying to come up with the "optimal" solution, that in the long run really didn't exist- in other words, it added fake complexity and very real tedium. In some ways, I always saw power attack as emblematic of one of the worst additions 3.x made to D&D- replacing strategy with number crunching. I'm happy it's gone.
I said I wasn't posting anymore, but once again feel the need.
Actually, you don't have saves. Saving throws are gone. Period. Someone went back to 2e and read the MThaco and MAC stuff from the revised psionics and said, "Hey, it worked so good then, lets use it again."
And, as a DM, if you allow your players to take up tons of game time deciding what number to use for their power attack and get nothing done in your gaming session, you have no one to blame but yourself. | |
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni" at will to old ladies.
-Roger the Shrubber | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 12/27/2007 9:37 AM |
| I said I wasn't posting anymore, but once again feel the need.
Actually, you don't have saves. Saving throws are gone. Period. Someone went back to 2e and read the MThaco and MAC stuff from the revised psionics and said, "Hey, it worked so good then, lets use it again."
And, as a DM, if you allow your players to take up tons of game time deciding what number to use for their power attack and get nothing done in your gaming session, you have no one to blame but yourself.
You do have saves. They simply work the same as armor class does. There is no mechanical difference- the attack's value (formerly the DC) has to exceed your save result. There has been no change other than how the mechanism is resolved.
As for blaming DMs- sure, you can do that, but why have a system that's supposed to reward mechanical optimization when mechanical optimization isn't what you're looking for? They're still including power attack, so the choice is still there. They're getting rid of the aspect that is both a potential time-waster and a logic-buster. Using power attack, a 20th level fighter could easily run his sword through several inches of steel. Yeah, that makes sense. Who exactly was talking about how 4e was producing super hero and manga-inspired characters?
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References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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kyrin
Commander
3168 Posts
| | 12/27/2007 5:44 PM |
| Posted By Puggins on 12/27/2007 8:33 AM
D&D is finally learning what boardgames and trading card games (Magic) learned many years ago: complexity for its own sake is stupid and deters new gamers.
Taking out skill points isn't dumbing it down- taking out skill points is making the game less stupid and archaic.
Funny, I was thinking that WoTC is about to learn is what a great many makers of Strategy Computer Games have learned the hard way -- that "streamlining" a game to try and appeal to a broader base usually just ends up alienating your core demographic.
And a system that has been in place for about seven years is "archaic?" Talk about elitism! This "new = better and anyone who disagress is afraid of change" attitude makes *me* want to fume.
I *am* willing to give 4E a chance, but not with my hard-earned money or my precious time. I've been down that road with computer games that claim to be "new and improved" but turn out to be buggy, unplayable messes (Civ II: Test of Time, I'm looking at YOU. And you too Master of Orion III -- I see you there!). Thanks to these newfangled Internets, even a stupid and archaic individual such as myself can benefit from the experiences of others.
Meantime, I've actually become quite pleased that 3.5 is done. While I wish certain things had been produced (Feats Compendium, Fiendish Codex III), I now have time to actually catch up on everything! And it's saving me money too: I probably won't buy but one or two non-mini products for years, until 4.5 comes out!
JIM
aka kyrin
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My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6755 Posts
| | 12/27/2007 7:05 PM |
| Posted By kyrin on 12/27/2007 5:44 PM I've been down that road with computer games that claim to be "new and improved" but turn out to be buggy, unplayable messes (Civ II: Test of Time, I'm looking at YOU. And you too Master of Orion III -- I see you there!). | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 12/28/2007 9:28 AM |
| Posted By Puggins on 12/28/2007 9:27 AM Funny, I was thinking that WoTC is about to learn is what a great many makers of Strategy Computer Games have learned the hard way -- that "streamlining" a game to try and appeal to a broader base usually just ends up alienating your core demographic. What Civ 2:ToT, MoO3 and (among many others) HOMM4 did was not streamlining. It was simplification at its worst. They actively took decisions out of your hands, which is always a bad thing in strategy games. Look at the classic games, however, and you'll notice a pattern: (1) They tended to give you more choice of actions than their predecessors. (2) They lowered the tedium involved in previous games. Civ3, Alpha Centauri, HOMM3, MoM, MoO2... they all had these characteristics. Virtually every change showcased in the 4e previews either fulfills one of these improvements or (at least) doesn't go in the opposite direction. And a system that has been in place for about seven years is "archaic?" Talk about elitism! This "new = better and anyone who disagress is afraid of change" attitude makes *me* want to fume. Oh come on.... you're an old fogey just like me, and I'm betting you've played plenty of RPGs too. We both know that skill points are a lot older than 3.0. And they suck. I *am* willing to give 4E a chance, but not with my hard-earned money or my precious time. I've been down that road with computer games that claim to be "new and improved" but turn out to be buggy, unplayable messes (Civ II: Test of Time, I'm looking at YOU. And you too Master of Orion III -- I see you there!). Thanks to these newfangled Internets, even a stupid and archaic individual such as myself can benefit from the experiences of others. A perfectly fair standpoint. I, on the other hand, will give it a shot using both my money and my time. If it turns out to be a bust, well... I've had worse disappointments, to be honest, both on computer and on paper.
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References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12367 Posts
The G Spot
| | 12/28/2007 9:39 AM |
| Posted By Puggins on 12/28/2007 9:28 AM
We both know that skill points are a lot older than 3.0. And they suck.
I thought that skill points are still present in 4E, but done differently than 3E. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6755 Posts
| | 12/28/2007 10:07 AM |
| If it's anything like Saga:
You'll get +1 to each skill for 1/2 your level rounded down + ability modifier. You get that for ALL of your skills, then you take training (you get about 4-6 trained skills, before spending feats). Training gives you +5 to that Skill. Spend a Feat and you get another +5 to that Skill.
1. So level 1 = +0
2. Ability Modifier +2 = +2
3. Training +5 = +7
4. Spend Feat +5 = +12
5. Equipment bonuses +X
All in all, it is much easier to figure out, but hard to decide on where to spend your skills. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3168 Posts
| | 12/28/2007 10:11 AM |
| Puggins, most of what I've been hearing (crunch-wise) is the stuff they've taken out:
Grappling is gone or extremely restricted. Maybe things like Trip and Disarm too? After all, they're "hard" and "take too long" just like grapple.
Power Attack is gone, and I'd bet similar skills like Expertise (y'know the ones that require math) are out as well.
Vanican spellcasting is gone or extremely restricted. It may not make Wizards glorified sorcerers or warlocks, but I fear the worst.
Skills are becoming less diversified. After all, moving without somebody hearing you is EXACTLY LIKE not letting people see you, right? The EXACT same skill. Just like people who can see well can ALWAYS also hear well, RIGHT? Yepper, that's true. Heck, let's make Open Locks, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, and Use Rope the same skill while we're at it.
All these sound like "simplification at its worst" to me. For WotC's sake, I hope I'm wrong.
JIM
aka kyrin
| |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 12/28/2007 10:18 AM |
| | I'm fairly certain that they're getting rid of the equipment bonus schtick- no more +20 spellcraft amulets and such. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6755 Posts
| | 12/28/2007 11:49 AM |
| Posted By kyrin on 12/28/2007 10:11 AM
Skills are becoming less diversified. After all, moving without somebody hearing you is EXACTLY LIKE not letting people see you, right? The EXACT same skill. Just like people who can see well can ALWAYS also hear well, RIGHT? Yepper, that's true.
Hmm, I'm gonna stand for the defense here.Â
I've been playing saga for a while now. Playing a rogue like character specifically. He specializes in Stealth, yep, it's the combination of Hide in Shadows and Move Silently. I gotta go with saga on this one, it's MUCH better. Why? Well, the d20 is a fickle thing, having to make 2 checks each time you want to be Stealthy is frustrating, the best you can hope for is an average from the two rolls. But, having to make 1 check is - a relief.
Now, here's the thing. The DM can add circumstancial modifiers to the defender, perhaps because they can hear really well, perhaps cause it's not dimly lit or they have dark vision, or maybe because of the sound of battle you get a bonus. Either way, I'm cool with it getting rolled in to 1 skill just so I can play a stealthy character without getting ****ed every time by the dice.
We've also house ruled Jump, Swim and Climb in to one Skill: Athletics. Still not one player has taken it as of yet. That says something to me - although I'm not entirely certain what. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 12/28/2007 2:39 PM |
| Grappling is gone or extremely restricted. Maybe things like Trip and Disarm too? After all, they're "hard" and "take too long" just like grapple.
I haven't heard any of that. They've stated that they're changing it to make it easier to deal with- which is a relief, because the rules for grappling had so many exceptions and stipulations that it seemed the vast majority of groups were handling it improperly. Here's a quick question- how does attacking a guy being grappled work? Don't look it up in the rules compendium- look it up in the SRD or the PHB and cite the rule and the amount of time it took you to find the rule, if you ever manage to find it at all.
Trip and disarm I haven't heard about, but some tinkering would be well worth it. They are abusable and make me feel cheap as a player and sheepish as a DM if I use them as much as they should be used in terms of effectiveness. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11587 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/29/2007 5:41 PM |
| Posted By scallamander on 12/24/2007 8:44 PM
4e seems to follow the overall pussification of America pattern, let's make everyone take their shoes off at airports because of one guy with a bomb in his shoe, let's stop all technological progress by putting a stop to all copying and sharing of material, let's give a trophy to every kid on every soccer team because even losers need awards, and let's remove any sort of complexity from D&D because its just too hard for some people. Ok, so I'm all over the place there, but that's the way I feel about 4e. The, 'lets get more people into the game, by dumbing it down' strategy, is not my cup of tea.
This is the kind of crap that pisses me off as well. I once overheard a loser co-worker chewing out a teacher on company time. The gist of the conversation was that he was complaining about other kids being rewarded for coming in 1st to 3rd in a spelling bee, and why his kids weren't rewarded for participating. The teacher should have just answered "because your kids suck". I'm kidding, of course, but seriously, what do you expect. In real life, there are winners and there are losers; winning feels good and losing hurts. Get 'em used to it early.
The above sounds cruel, so don't get me wrong, I'm not for stomping a child into a reserved, underdeveloped submission. I just feel that you can't coddle them too much, lest they not be prepared for what life has in store.
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Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1361 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 12/30/2007 2:23 AM |
| | Isn't this a lot of discussion in a thread that the thread-starter has said he will never read again? | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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StormKnight
Sneak
85 Posts
| | 01/29/2008 2:34 PM |
| All these sound like "simplification at its worst" to me.
Hmm, now to me the skills issue sounds like simplification at is best. We've been playing around with trying to figure out how to cut skills in about a quarter long before 4e was announced. I mean really, who has the concept of a rogue that is utterly silent but hasn't got the half ounce of training to not walk across an open patch of broad daylight skipping (quiety) merrily? Or thinks 'my character concept would be perfect, but only if I'm really perceptive when casually glancing around but lousy at finding things I actually look for.' This level of division in skills just creates too much pointless redundancy. | |
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 01/31/2008 5:31 PM |
| Posted By minatoman38 on 12/30/2007 2:23 AM
Isn't this a lot of discussion in a thread that the thread-starter has said he will never read again?
Yeah, but the rest of us are still having a discussion about that. And I bet Wraith reads it occassionally.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
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Wraithborne
Commander
4305 Posts
The Red Light District
| | 01/31/2008 10:26 PM |
| | Like a redneck watching a tornado sweep his trailer away, I have to take a peek at the carnage from time to time. | |
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni" at will to old ladies.
-Roger the Shrubber | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 02/07/2008 2:50 PM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 01/31/2008 10:26 PM
Like a redneck watching a tornado sweep his trailer away, I have to take a peek at the carnage from time to time.
see, told ya 
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
yack
Commander
3261 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 02/28/2008 5:13 AM |
| | The whole idea of not rolling for your HP per round and you just get a set number the biggest stinker to me. To me thats just not D&D if you have set hp per level not a lucky or unlucky roll. Thats the nail along with many others for me with 4th ed. I'll pass (that and the metal wings on angels :P) | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 02/28/2008 8:59 AM |
| A lot of tournaments give HP based on level, not on roll. Takes some of the randomness out, which for some, is good, and others, bad.
I for one, will adjust stats based on rolls. As I've heard lamented before...
"Rolling for ability scores: It always results in: 2
average joes, Super-Fantabulousman, and Mr. Retardo."
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Ghendar
Warlord
12367 Posts
The G Spot
| | 02/28/2008 12:28 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 02/28/2008 8:59 AM
I for one, will adjust stats based on rolls. As I've heard lamented before...
"Rolling for ability scores: It always results in: 2 average joes, Super-Fantabulousman, and Mr. Retardo."
But the truly baffling thing is that those who say those things and complain about how much 3E sucks and NEEDS to be fixed are the same people who supported and kept playing 3E. Guess it wasn't so bad as to make them quit the game. Nuts, I tells ya, NUTS! | |
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I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
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G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 03/01/2008 5:42 AM |
| I'm not switching. I have seen nothing of interest in 4th edition for me. To be fair to WOTC. I had decided not to switch to 4th edition about 2 years ago. Long before it was annouced. I have since then invested heavly in 3.5 with the plan that it would be my last system. The stlye of 4th edition has just made it easy for me to stick to the plan. | |
Yes I am Gelatinous.
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 03/03/2008 8:48 AM |
| Posted By orcdoubleax on 03/01/2008 5:42 AM I'm not switching. I have seen nothing of interest in 4th edition for me. To be fair to WOTC. I had decided not to switch to 4th edition about 2 years ago. Long before it was annouced. I have since then invested heavly in 3.5 with the plan that it would be my last system. The stlye of 4th edition has just made it easy for me to stick to the plan.
A good idea. If you find what you like, stick with it. I'll keep my 3.5 stuff, and if 4E isn't better, I'll go back.
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"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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