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smilinIrish
Sergeant
913 Posts
    
 | | 06/24/2008 7:16 PM |
| | Is is possible to play 4E without a one inch grid and map? When I started playing the game it was second edition, and we used minis only when combat started. No mapping out dungeons on a grid with the minis out all the time. The DM drew things on a wipeoff board and when combat started, we put out our minis. In 3E, it became a little more tactical, but now, it seems you can't really use the powers without a one inch grid and minis. (I haven't had the opportunity to play yet, we might play this Friday. I have totally mixed feelings about 4E right now. I can feel what people are saying about limited options. It feels like all the powers do similar things, they just have different names. I am not excited by the magic items at all. I really want to think 4e is awesome, but I'm afraid I won't like it. | |
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stephengroy
Underboss
1409 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 06/24/2008 9:18 PM |
| Look on the bright side - you can again use those old 2E minis you loved so much.
Don't have any? check my HW list! | |
Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 06/24/2008 9:25 PM |
| | 4e can be played without minis. Here's something, I never used minis unless it was a massive battle in any earlier edition. | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 5:55 AM |
| | You can but it really requires a lot of brain power to process. I think for most this means limiting the party to having 4 PC's facing 1-3 monsters in some fairly generic terrain settings. For me, I'm liking my 4E mini battles with 6 PC's facing 4 big baddies and their 12 minions on levitating crystal disks crackling with energy swirling over a chasm of lava. | |
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| The Great
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Ghendar
Warlord
12367 Posts
The G Spot
| | 06/25/2008 7:18 AM |
| Posted By smilinIrish on 06/24/2008 7:16 PM
 I really want to think 4e is awesome, but I'm afraid I won't like it.Â
Captain obvious here stating that unless you try it you won't know one way or the other. 
I have made the decision to try the game despite my extreme reservations. Bottom line for me is I want to be informed. I'll make a decision later on whether to continue with 4e, or go back to previous editions.
Honestly, I wouldn't want to play 4e (or 3e for that matter) without minis. I can see it getting really confusing, really easily. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
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wicked cool
Underboss
2123 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 7:41 AM |
| | you could use dice,cereal,candy for different pieces instead but it takes away from the visualization. I started plaing 4th ed last week and having a grid helped me plan my attacks and get a better grasp of where i wanted to move/attack the following round. to me they take nothing away from the experience | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/25/2008 8:44 AM |
| 2E was confusing without minis (which is why, when I started, it was the first thing I pushed the players to get, for combat)
3.x was great with minis, and good without, because you still had stuff in feet.
4E, I'm up in the air. I want to know how many feet my spell can go if I want to fireball the orphanage evil castle by surprise.
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smilinIrish
Sergeant
913 Posts
| | 06/26/2008 7:30 PM |
| | I'll definitely be trying it, when we can get it together, I'm just looking over it trying to get excited, and I just can't. Usually you hear someone already loving or hating it. I hope I love it, but right now, I think it'll be too different to feel like the same game. Everything seems set up for combat rounds and combat range, without having much ability that is relevent outside of combat. I'll guess I'll see in time. | |
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"Whatever you do, don't drop a blade barrier on a troll."
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Darth Torment
Warrior
176 Posts
Toronto, Ontario CANADA
| | 07/09/2008 1:03 PM |
| 4E, I'm up in the air. I want to know how many feet my spell can go if I want to fireball the orphanage evil castle by surprise.
LMAO | |
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StormKnight
Sneak
85 Posts
| | 07/25/2008 8:47 AM |
| 4E, I'm up in the air. I want to know how many feet my spell can go if I want to fireball the orphanage evil castle by surprise.
Two answers:
A) Number of squares x5 feet.
B) If you aren't using a grid, how do you know how many feet away the target is anyway?
Well, because the DM tells you. But if its all just going on in rough estiamtes in someone's head, who cares about exact values anyway?
Typically, when I play RPGs without a grid, we care about things like "in melee range", "can get to them in one move", "can get to them by running" and "out of missile range". Or somethiing like that. If you actually want to bother with detailed numbers, its time to pull out the grids and make everyone's life easier.
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Rath
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 07/26/2008 12:53 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/25/2008 8:44 AM
2E was confusing without minis (which is why, when I started, it was the first thing I pushed the players to get, for combat)
Say what?
Unlike 3E and 4E, the core 2E combat rules weren't designed specifically for miniature use, instead combat is more of an abstraction. There is no grid, there is no guidance on how to move your miniature diagonally on a battlemat, etc... that's because it wasn't assumed that people were going to have miniatures when they played the game.
I like using miniatures because they're fun and they bring a nice visual element to the game. It's cool to be able to show approximately where your PC is in relation to the monster and to actually "see" the creature or creatures you're fighting. However, 2E also plays incredibly well without them.
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2000 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/26/2008 2:27 PM |
| | 2E was easy... 3.0 was fine... we really started using minis fulltime about the time DDM came out (about 3.5)... I honestly can't see playing without them now and after a few games of 4E I think it would be impossible to get full enjoyment without them (stupid WOTC's marketing)... | |
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| Master of the
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 07/26/2008 9:42 PM |
| 2E was confusing because sale was all sorts ofcrazy. Movement 6. What does that mean? The abstract also doesn't allow for strategic postioning, and there's a lot of miscommunication.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Rath
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 07/27/2008 11:00 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 07/26/2008 9:42 PM
2E was confusing because sale was all sorts ofcrazy. Movement 6. What does that mean? The abstract also doesn't allow for strategic postioning, and there's a lot of miscommunication.
In 2E, a movement rate of 6 equals 60 feet per round of movement in the dungeon, outside it's 60 yards per round. I don't see that as crazy or hard to grasp.
The rules for 2E were not designed for strategic movement with miniatures. Miniatures are more for showing approximately where your PC is in relation to the monster or saying to the guy next to you "hey, look at my mini... it's cool"
In 2E, you attack the monster, it attacks you. It's quick, it's easy, it's fun. It's not "D&D Chess" and it's not supposed to be.
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 07/28/2008 8:42 AM |
| I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because that was one of the worst parts of 2E, in my expereince and all those that I know.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5091 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/28/2008 2:08 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 07/28/2008 8:42 AM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because that was one of the worst parts of 2E, in my expereince and all those that I know.
I'm in the "2e abstract combat was a mess" camp.
Each edition of D&D focuses more on concrete, tactical movement and 4e does a splendid job of it. I like to know precisely where the action is, who's doing what, and what each character's spatial relationship is.
The best implementation of 2e combat was the Baldur's Gate trilogy. And, in effect, that was using miniatures to play the game.
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