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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
    
San Diego, CA
 | | 07/27/2008 5:18 PM |
| One of my friends is currently having trouble in her 4e games. The DM keeps building encounters appropriate for their level, but the party (usually three or four characters) keeps getting wiped out.
The players do focus on teamwork, and they are getting the hang of things, but they still end up dying.
I suppose what I'm asking for here... Are there any tips I can give either the players or the DM? After all, most of the other reports I've heard have shown players breezing through encounter after encounter without problems, so there has to be something going wrong.
Of note is that hot dice have only been involved in one game. Also, they're using the standard 22-point-buy method for character generation and tend to start at level three. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5091 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/28/2008 12:24 AM |
| Bump up to a 26-point buy. Also, the DM shouldn't be running encounters appropriate to their level if the party consists of less than 5 members. Encounters should be reduced to compensate.
Only other advice I can think of is make sure everyone in the party has the either the cleric or warlord healing power (via class or via multiclassing). | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 07/28/2008 8:30 AM |
| 26 point buy should definitely be used.
Drop level of encounter by one.
And perhaps some quick reminders on their abilities. Most fo the 4E TPK's I've heard of see the PC's forgetting some of their better tactical options.
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StormKnight
Sneak
85 Posts
| | 07/28/2008 9:30 AM |
| Whoa. What's this 'drop level of encounter by one' stuff?
4th edition folks! If you've got 4 level 1 PCs, you've got a budget of 400 XP and should put in about 4 monsters - that should give a balanced fight. If the party's getting wiped out (and not playing like idiots), there's probably something going wrong with the numbers.
Heck, we took a party of four through Kobold Keep with no problems - aside from the last fight, which is badly balanced even with 5. | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 07/28/2008 10:54 AM |
| Yeah, but if there's too many TPK's, then you need to kill them less.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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StormKnight
Sneak
85 Posts
| | 07/28/2008 1:09 PM |
| I'm just saying this 'drop the encounter level by one' stuff doesn't make sense in 4e. Encounters are balanced around a budget of XP. There isn't really such a thing as a '3rd level encounter'. A reasonable encounter for a party of 5 3rd level characters is built with 875 XP.
I really think that if the party is hitting a lot of TPKs most likely either the encounters are not being built on a good amount of XP, or a rule is being messed up. Perhaps characters aren't being able to take short rests in between encounters? I think scaling back the encounters probably misses that there's something going wrong.
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5091 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/28/2008 2:04 PM |
| From the DMG page 31:
* Give the characters an escape route
* Make intentionally bad choices for the monsters
* "forget" to roll to see if monsters recharge their powers
* come up with a story reason for the monsters to leave the fight
* let the monsters win, but leave the characters alive for some reason
From the DMG Page 56:
1. Choose an encoutner level. Encounter level is relative tto the number of characters in the party.
An easy encounter is one or two levels lower than the party's level.
A standard encounter is oof the party's level or one level higher.
A hard encounter is two to four levels higher than the party's level.
2. Determine your XP budget. Multiply the number of characters in the party by the XP value of a monster of the encounter's level.
From the DMG page 57:
Target Encounter XP Totals
Encounter Level 4 PCs 5PCs 6PCs
1 400 500 600
2 500 625 750
3 600 750 900
So, a party of 3-4 1st-level PCs should never face more than 300-400xp worth of monsters in a standard encounter. An easy encounter should be more along the lines of 100-200xp while a hard encounter should be between 600 and 800xp.
Dropping the encounter level by one makes perfect sense in 4e since is simply means moving from a hard encounter to a standard encounter or from a standard encounter to an easy encounter.
Also, Stormknight, be careful when reading the xp table. Your sample "reasonable" encounter for 5 3rd-level characters is actually a reasonable amount of xp for a party of 5 4th-level characters. A simple mistake in eyes jumping lines on a table can also result in TPKs in 4e.
Our group tends to get a lot of milestones. They also occasionally complain that they're being too hard pressed. I find they're complaints humorous because they're constantly pushing through to the next encounter after having expended their encounter powers (and occasionally daily powers). They don't want to take the short rests to recharge. Yet, we've only had one death and no TPKs. My players are very familiar with their powers (which is key), I occasionally use the DMG page 31 guidelines for 'fudging' a monster (White Dragon battle went from TPK to single PC death because I "forgot" to recharge its breath weapon once).
So, my advice? Bump up the buy to 26 points (the math just works slightly better). Be sure to have appropriately encounter levels (easy, standard, or hard). Be sure to drop the encounter level by one if necessary (i.e. reduce from hard to standard). Make sure you're using the right amount of XP for the number of PCs in the party. Be sure to balance the monster roles (spend your xp between leaders/brutes/soldiers/controllers/minions/etc. as evenly as possible). Mix up encounters by throwing occasional solos (but try to avoid making solo encounters the "hard" encounter). Always offer a skill challenge alternative to combat (or other means for the party to escape/defeat the encounter if things get too hairy). But most importantly, use the page 31 guidelines for 'fudging' encounters if things get to hot.
I have no issues with killing a PC. Especially if the players are not making sound tactical decisions. I do think it's essentially pointless to continually TPK. No one has fun (except for slightly saddistic DMs). It's better to fudge a little (also keeps PCs who've read the MM on their toes) than to just mow down your players while cackling and using the justification "the encounter is reasonable, you must just suck."
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StormKnight
Sneak
85 Posts
| | 07/28/2008 2:55 PM |
| Dropping the encounter level by one makes perfect sense in 4e since is simply means moving from a hard encounter to a standard encounter or from a standard encounter to an easy encounter.
That's dropping the difficulty of the encounter by a step. 'Level' has a very specific meaning in D&D, and easy/standard/hard is not it. Referring to 'dropping an encounter level' overloads a term and makes it more confusing. I completely assumed it was a 3.x holdover referring to using EL 3 worth of monsters instead of EL 4.
Also, Stormknight, be careful when reading the xp table.
Actually, I either came up with the wrong XP per player from memory or (more likely) hit the wrong value into the calculator. Either way, a good thing to catch! Whoops.
Especially if the players are not making sound tactical decisions.
Of course, some players feel that if they wanted tactical decisions they wouldn't be playing an RPG in the first place. :) | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7617 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 07/28/2008 3:59 PM |
| True, but making dumb decisions in an RPG gets you killed, just like in real life.
Unless someone wants to become the D&D baseless lawsuit paragon path.
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Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 08/03/2008 8:25 AM |
| In 4e Players needs to not just play co-operativly. But also build co-operativly. Most of a parties Hit points are "stored up" in healing surges. healing between battles is good, but doesn't prevent TPK's in a single fight. To dio that, the party has to guarentee to un-KO itself when facing overwhelming odds. That requires at least 2 (3 is better) healers {Clerics, Paladins, Warlords} If you only have 1 then, the GM can KO that PC & a TPK becomes trivial. If you only have a 3-player party, you really do need to agree on the party build to get 2 or 3 healers. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2004 Posts
Portland OR
| | 08/03/2008 12:56 PM |
| Something my guys learned last week... a simple heal check 10 allows you to spend a healing surge... make sure if you can be trained in healing you are...Use extra action points at the begining of an encounter to A)kill off a creature quickly and put the odds in your favor, or B) trigger a healing surge on an injured party member.
I keep going back to my party of 2 dwarf fighter build... he never went down and it was just me and the Warlord... Play smart and build smart to survive. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2004 Posts
Portland OR
| | 08/03/2008 12:58 PM |
| Also to the DM:
Does the monster really know that that guy in the back is the only healer in the party? Unlikely... if you want to TPK that's how you do it... if you want a realistic and fair game don't target the healer just because YOU the DM know it will hinder the party. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Loquacious1
Sneak
61 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 08/04/2008 8:38 AM |
| Well, out of the two groups I've run with, we've only had one TPK, and that was mostly because of extremely terrible luck in the Shadowfell (DM rolled five crits in the first round, and neve failed to recharge his powers. That was a killer). Though that damn Gelatinous cube had eaten the other four party members--I was the only one left (the Rogue). That was almost a TPK.
But since then, we haven't had any, mostly because we've learned from our mistakes. Regardless of what character I use, I'll often 'blow' an action to activate someone's Second Wind (That's the main drawback; you can only use it once per encounter). We've found healing potions cheap and invaluable; 10 hp healed for 50 gp, AND it's just a minor action! that's Pretty worthwhile to us. We are all running around with several per character. Of course, we try not to use them unless we have too.
Plus, in each campaign, at least one Character has the Multiclass Cleric or Warlord feat. It pretty much gets saved until the Main healer goes down. At that point, it's just a minor to get the healer back up (who can then hopefully heal themselves).
There's also an armor property that I thonk works on any type of armor (I could be wrong) that Allows you to heal as if you've spent a healing surge as a free action. It's not too expensive, and that is worth getting for EVERY character! | | | |
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