MechaKingGhidra Sergeant
 632 Posts




 | | 09/28/2006 9:06 PM |
| I'm not sure if this should be posted in the Trades or Marketplace section of the site so I thought maybe it could even be acceptable for General and I guess if it isn't, it can always be moved or re-posted on the appropriate board if this isn't.
Even if I don't get anything back from my situation explained below it is nevertheless a good thing to be aware of at least one thing. I think Canada Post is onto us.
Canadians such as myself like to get minis at relatively cheaper prices when we are given the chance because prices can be very wonky, if you will, when American-based products are being purchased due to all the stuff we already have a general concept of understanding about. In fact, who doesn't like buying things cheaper? Anyhoooooo, the reality of the situation is that ironincally, American sellers are usually one of the best places to start (although there are obviously reliable Canadian sellers out there), despite the difference in our dollar value. But recently I found out that buying things in this manner can't always be cheaper alternatives. On my last transaction, getting minis through international means turned out fairly more expensive than I thought, although it wasn't like it was the biggest rip-off and waste of money I have ever encountered. Just very annoying and I wish I knew how to make a reasonable argument so as to at least get back a little bit of the money I would not have otherwise spent.
I very recently came out of a transaction and although the normal and quite common but admittedly dishonest practice of listing the value of the package at $10 so to avoid fees later on was indeed applied to my incoming package, Customs nevertheless opened it (for whatever reasons they might have had for doing so) which puzzled me because this has never happened before. Never. So obviously it was a big surprise. It wasn't even explained why it was opened in the first place. Anywhoo, they basically looked inside, looked at the invoice (because there was an obvious re-folding of it extremely close to the original crease lines) and deemed the package worth about $6 more than what the invoice indicated, for a subtotal of $124, making me in the end pay a bunch of money in taxes and I say SUBtotal because it did not stop there. Customs also added more taxes because I could have bought the figures in Canada (but as we all know, this would likely get VERY expensive as I was buying a fair amount of older figures and whatnot, "whatnot" meaning there are too many factors to list in addition to what has been said already). All together I had to shell out about $22 in order for the post office to hand it over. I don't know about you but that seems a tad much when it is just taxes by themselves, not the actual face price. I almost didn't pay up because this seemed insane but I figured that I guess that is life and I might find a way to get a refund of at least some of it later if I pulled a horseshoe out of my rear by coming about some advice on how to proceed. So is there anyone who could share some information on how this could be handled? Obviously it is not the end of the world or anything of the like. I can live with it but as anyone who is familiar with the common courtesy of listing low prices so that taxes can be avoided in the first place can imagine, it isn't exactly something that goes by very easily if there is now the known risk of possible repeat perfomaces and unnecessary amounts of money, eventually leading up to potentially hundreds of dollars may be needed when otherwise it wouldn't have been necessary. Sure, what was going on with many international transactions wasn't honest but if there is a way to justify it without going into extreme technicalites but still using economical know-how and the like, it would be extremely appreciated on how these sorts of situations could be avoided later on and resolve current disputes. I ask for this help because I apparently can phone a number which would connect me to the proper person to talk to and essentially argue for a partial refund (hopefully at the very least) or (even more hopefully) a full refund. P.S. Sorry for the extreme elaboration but I felt perhaps it might have been necessary so I did not confuse myself by using a shorter version which there would have been objectionable statements that could have been inferred a number of ways and/or anything equivalent happening. | | Champion of the Prismatic Golem
MechaKingGhidra: Infamous for his absolute despisement of Red Dragons and devout worshipper of all Black Dragons. | |
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 Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3518 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 09/28/2006 10:43 PM |
| There must have been something in the labeling of the package that indicated, to the customs official who inspected it, that the package came from a retailer. That obviously didn't jive with the customs form saying "gift", so they decided to inspect. It's possible it was just a random inspection, but I doubt that happens often enough to worry about. I'm not sure what to suggest as far as recourse. It's certainly within the law for them to inspect packages and assess an import tax for an obviously commercial shipment. I suppose you could ask sellers not to include an invoice. Then, if the customs official should open the package, there's nothing to indicate the value of the contents. And really, without an invoice, what customs official is going to look at a handful of plastic monsters and think they're worth anything more than ~$10 claimed on the customs form?
This should only be a concern for purchases that cross borders. If you're trading between Canada and the US, I doubt there would be anything suspicious about the packaging that would prompt customs to open it. If they did, the worst they'll find is a little note saying "thanks for the trade". That shouldn't raise any red flags with customs. And, if you ask me, it's perfectly ethical to claim a trade as an exchange of gifts. We don't live in barter economies. | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
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 Vrecknidj Warlord
 10430 Posts


 United States
 | | 09/29/2006 4:57 AM |
| Thanks for the post. I do a lot of trades with Canadians and always mark "gift" but am leery about something like this happening.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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orcdoubleax Sergeant
 694 Posts



 | | 09/29/2006 5:18 AM |
| a very small number of international packages are randomly checked. You could have just got unlucky.
once opened they of course check for tax violations.
edir: especially if you have an history of recieving packages marked gifts from international sources. It is less common with packages from the states. More often with anything over seas or from south America. | | Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 6757 Posts




 | | 09/29/2006 5:51 AM |
| | I've paid $35 to pick up a parcel once. It was for a single Mummy figure. Needless to say I was pissed. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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kestrel.ca Underboss
 1684 Posts




 | | 09/29/2006 6:57 AM |
| Personally, I don't have a problem with paying taxes -- it's what allows us our quality of life. That being said, I don't think I should pay taxes on a trade.
From your information, I'm guessing that the $22 was 6% GST, 7% PST, and their usual $5 handling fee. The only thing about that that would truly bother me is the handling fee. On a $100+ purchase, it's not that bad, but when they open a $20 parcel, and add it on it's a real pain.
My advice, on purchases, is to be honest. I buy from the US so I can get better prices, not to evade taxes. For trades, or auction items (especially of used items), I prefer to have things makred as gift and low value.
But that's my opinion... | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 94 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
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Sulaco Underboss
 1605 Posts




 | | 09/29/2006 7:13 AM |
| When customs opens up your package you also have to pay a handling fee ($5 IIRC) in addition to whatever duties and taxes they then choose to add to it.
I kid you not. You actually have to pay them for screwing you! | | Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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 Custom Title WakeXX Warlord
 10147 Posts


 Edinboro PA
 | | 09/29/2006 7:17 AM |
| Weird that if the package was marked as valued under $10,they increased the value to $126!
Moved to trading Q&A | | | |
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 Zenako Commander
 3469 Posts




 | | 09/29/2006 11:36 AM |
| | It was the invoice inside that gave them the value to assess things at. Otherwise as mentioned, they would only see a bunch of plastic monsters or "armymen" you could pick up at any toy store. Kind of surprised the seller would agree to the sham given the disclaimers you have to sign on the customs forms. Not worth the hassle or risk to me as a seller for the convience of an out of country buyer. | | Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project.... http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006 Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
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 Custom Title WakeXX Warlord
 10147 Posts


 Edinboro PA
 | | 09/29/2006 12:28 PM |
| Posted By Zenako on 09/29/2006 11:36 AM It was the invoice inside that gave them the value to assess things at. Otherwise as mentioned, they would only see a bunch of plastic monsters or "armymen" you could pick up at any toy store. Kind of surprised the seller would agree to the sham given the disclaimers you have to sign on the customs forms. Not worth the hassle or risk to me as a seller for the convience of an out of country buyer.
Teach me to read threads sober why don't you Z... Â
I'm suprised the sellers would agree to this as well and I'm suprised Canada post didn't try to get him for mail fraud or somesuch. | | | |
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 Wrackspawn ChristopherGroves Warlord
 6093 Posts




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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 12367 Posts



 The G Spot
 | | 10/06/2006 3:56 AM |
| | So I'm assuming that when I trade with one of my valued trading partners up north, it is okay to label the package as "gift" ? | | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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Sulaco Underboss
 1605 Posts




 | | 10/11/2006 11:10 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 10/06/2006 3:56 AM So
I'm assuming that when I trade with one of my valued trading
partners up north, it is okay to label the package as "gift" ? Yup. Since there is no exchange of currency I see it is essentially a mutal gift-exchange.
I tend to give a listed value of ¢10 per common, ¢25 per uncommon, and
$1 per rare when filling out the forms. Rarely is it ever over $10 that
way and they can always check the total vs. the contents if they like.
| | Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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kritter Underboss
 1336 Posts



 Calgary, Alberta Canada
 | | 10/11/2006 2:53 PM |
| if you look at the canada post customs website it says you can give "gifts" of up to $60 in value that are not taxed
i had an american trader send me a CRD and listed as "gift", value $50... no tax or handling fee from customs | | Trades: Complete: 134 Ongoing: 1 BAD: 2 = Cha0tic g0od, Thor <--- thief and a liar Champion of the Aspect of Yeenoghu, Demon Prince of Gnolls and Bigby | |
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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 12367 Posts



 The G Spot
 | | 10/20/2006 4:00 AM |
| Posted By kritter on 10/11/2006 2:53 PM if you look at the canada post customs website it says you can give "gifts" of up to $60 in value that are not taxed
i had an american trader send me a CRD and listed as "gift", value $50... no tax or handling fee from customs
Good to know, thanks!  | | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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Reddog Sneak
 128 Posts




 | | 11/05/2006 6:01 AM |
| Well my sister works for the glorious Canada Post Corporation. I can tell you that if the seller includes an invoice and your package is opened then customs will tax you on the Canadian conversion of the invoiced price. Plus the handling fee of 5.00.
The handling fee is standard on any item that has to pay tax or duty to Canada Customs. This was an agreed upon fee that the post office worked out to handle the delivery and collection for Canada Customs. Before this 5.00 fee Canada Customs made you drive to their "local" customs office (local sometimes meant a 20 minute drive) and pick up the item.
If you by from a retailer or on ebay ask them to either value the item on a invoice for under 20.00. Or mark it as a gift and value the item under 50 dollars (USD)... | | Successful trades: Ikill4adollar, WhyteAngel, Klogg, GreyOne, Zenako
Cash Sales:Thousandsofminis
Trade in Progress:
Bad Trades: Kong | |
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 RedSkullz Warrior
 266 Posts



 Northern Ontario
 | | 05/28/2007 11:21 AM |
| Well i have been nailed by customs fees before....my latest was from an insured gift valued at $300+...had to pay $52 in customs fees  Reddog- wicked avatar...it looks almost identical to our blue healer, except ours has a white spot on her forehead. | | | |
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Gerry Skirmisher
 3 Posts


 Toronto, Canada.
 | | 08/25/2008 7:16 AM |
| Basically, CPC & Customs can bill you for any sale over $20 or any gift over $60.00 And often, they'll let things go that are slightly higher .  Get your trader to list a total below one of those limits, and of course, don't include contradictory invoices inside. That all said, I've heard that "gift" items get a closer look, even before opening, especially if it appears to be from a commercial entity. I like the label "Used Toys" myself, and a low value, it seems to work. Asking the trading partner to list $0.25 per item sounds good. Conversely, vendors in the USA may consider that "Mail Fraud" and may avoid doing so. Can't say I blame them. I'd love to know the legal definition of a Trading Partner. We exchange items of value for other items of value, but no cash is involved. So it's NOT a sale. If we've known people for a while, we may throw in a few things cause they're nice to e-chat with here on the boards. (Someone once tossed in a whole bunch of commons and uncommons for my niece who was starting up her collection). So how does one calculate a value on that?
As far as laws and tax evasion: I have no problem paying my taxes. I too enjoy my highways and hospitals. I object to a $5.00 fee for the privilege of doing so, however. Especially if that is 2/3's of the amount owing. Just my $0.02.
Gerry | | | |
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